[nzenigma]

Gerard, Just looked at your Utube research. 
 First things first. I've come across old motors with crank end play; but the shaftshaft just moves in and out of the seal. The seal stays in place and will probably only leak a bit of oil. I have NEVER had to 'glue' a new oil seal into the recess.

The Canadian utube guys are  being straight forward but are being jerked around by their garage and dealer. Of the latter hard to tell who is on the ball and what the hell fault they have found.

Similarly, 2xcats  dealer has taken the sump off and found what???????????????????????????????? Was it nothing or has he closed the patient in the hope it will go away and die in someone else's driveway?

If the end play shims have fallen out it will be fairly obvious, 1. they will be in the sump, 2. the crankshaft can move back and forward a few mm. Measurable and fixable. Why would you need to replace the motor? 

#2 Canadian is more cynical.  He has been told that the oil seal seat has gone oval, what crap!! Jezz if only I could get this dealer on the witness stand..... looking at life!

2 cats mechanic will need to drop the sump and look at all the possible faults we have come up with: end play ,PCV  , high oil pressure,  fractures in oil pump, etc. NO need to replace the motor.

[2xcatz]

Yes guys the service centre said over the phone that they had replaced the sump gasket but in talking to them face-to-face I said to them that there was no sump gasket and he said that they hadn't installed a "sump gasket" nor did they charge for same.

Gentlemen, your blood is worth bottling!!!!!!  As armed with the knowledge that was displayed on the three YouTube videos from Canada, and your written words, I showed my mechanic this afternoon.  I wasn't sure that he believed what he saw when I depressed the clutch pedal without the cam belt connected to its pulley, but when he saw the end of the crankshaft come towards him approx. 3mm, like the thickness of a paper thick thrust bearing, he then removed the sump.  After removing the exhaust manifold, the sump was removed and we were both looking for thrust washes in the bottom of the sump, but alas there was only a little bit of metal in the lower section of the sump.  He then removed the centre main bearing cap complete with thrust bearings and said "one looks in tact, but the other isn't all there".  The thrust bearing towards the oil pump looked in tact but the other trust bearing facing the flywheel was paper thin. 

Also the crankshaft web around where the thrust bearing faces has been scored so they can't say that they will replace the crankshaft only.  In addition, the face where the thrust bearing has been installed is also scored as the crankshaft web was wearing against this face.

So armed with both thrust bearings, which I also have in my possession, I'm going to the Hyundai dealership where the vehicle was purchased, to complain about their poor design and to insist that Hyundai replaced the motor with a new one.  I let you know tomorrow what the outcome is.

Some of what was done this afternoon has been recorded on video, but home technology is letting me down, so I will post this video tomorrow when I get to work.

Once again everyone thanks for you help with this problem and I will inform Hyundai what a poor design fault this is, by only have two half thrust bearings being used and my mechanic will do away with the interlock that is currently wired so that the clutch must be depressed upon start up.

It is interesting that unlike my MGB and Midget motor which have four halves at the centre main bearing cap, there are only the half thrust bearings - obviously to reduce cost.

[mickd]

All I can say is "wow, unbelievable ".
Have been following post,  no doubt others are as well,  with interest.
Thanks tw and nz for your brain racking and thoughts,   
2catz - you've gotta be bald by now !, hang in there   

[The Gonz]

Glad the brains trust is in full flight.
What an adventure!

[tw2005]

Glad the brains trust is in full flight.
What an adventure!

Bet you're glad you have the diesel! Hmmm, so do I x 3 

[2xcatz]

Guys, Have a neighbour with the same vintage i30 which is a manual diesel, I'm assuming it won't be affected by the same issue - can you please confirm that this is the case so that I can pacify him?

[tw2005]

Guys, Have a neighbour with the same vintage i30 which is a manual diesel, I'm assuming it won't be affected by the same issue - can you please confirm that this is the case so that I can pacify him?

No idea but I have a 378000K example and it's fine looking all original(just repalced a blown turbo, something's gotta give along the way )

[nzenigma]

Guys, Have a neighbour with the same vintage i30 which is a manual diesel, I'm assuming it won't be affected by the same issue - can you please confirm that this is the case so that I can pacify him?

To be honest, these were the observer's best theories. I've complained to tw previously  that  the i30 motor is so reliable that they are almost impossible to kill; or to sell after being stripped from a write off vehicle.
 Consequently, about the only  time I need to work on the engine internally is after someone's wife has gashed the sump and continued to drive it to seizure.

I praise your mechanic too.
He has done what nobody else has done ( include Utube examples) and has gone old school, actually worked on the motor and found the fault.

It could be that Hyundai have had a batch of bad thrust washers, or more likely an issue with the crank journal .
Could also be others out there that have failed but will only become apparent if the seal pops.

When you go back to Hyundai, be forceful about this being a manufacturing fault and that the vehicle was not fit for purpose. Also, their service was appalling and they appear to have deliberately deceived you. You have good grounds to make a case out of this.

Good LUCK  

[nzenigma]

@2xcatz  If this works for you, please pose this to your mechanic.

I have a feeling that oil pressure is the killer that pops the seal. I would like to have seen what affect the 3mm movement has on the oil pump. Does it distort and allow oil to flow out behind the seal?
The reason I ask this is because when your car arrived at the mechanic's garage, the seal was still in place, but the car had lost a heap of oil.
Also in my experience a shaft will move in and out of a seal, its seems part of the seal's design. Secondly, why just the front seal? The crankshaft is also moving in the rear seal .
To conclude, I suggest that you also have a close look at the pump for any damage. Possibly worth including it in your issue with Hyundai.
Cheers.

[2xcatz]

Hi Everybody, Do you want the good new or the bad news? 

Sorry guys there isn't any good news.  I went to the Hyundai dealership where the vehicle purchased after making an appointment to see the Service Manager and after telling him the story and him saying that the car is 6 months out of warranty, I pleaded some Hyundai "goodwill".  He proceeded to tell me that I'd have to get in contact with Hyundai Australia on an 1800 number in Sydney and convey details to them.  But he said that in the meantime, and before I make contact with Sydney, that I have to have ALL receipts from every service not just the stamped service record book.  This is to supposedly confirm that the service was performed at the correct time and that the correct oil was used.

As my partner was endeavouring to obtain receipts, I got in touch with Sydney and told them the ordeal and mentioned the YouTube videos from Canada and I was told very promptly that this "goodwill" gesture is nothing to do with Canada.  I was told that the warranty had expired the car would have to be taken to a Hyundai dealership, where the motor would be dismantled by them.  I then got in contact with the second dealership where the oil problem was "not diagnosed" nor was the "sump gasket" replaced and spoke to the Service Manager, told him the story and he confirmed that I would have to tow the car to their premises, so that they could remove and dismantle the motor to investigate the "real problem".  I asked for a budget figure as to what cost would be involved if the goodwill gesture was declined.  It could be declined if one receipt had not/could not be supplied and therefore a cost to me for the dismantling and investigation of the motor would be approximately $1500.

To which I replied that I'd already sourced a second hand motor - 2011 vintage G4GC with 40,000 km on it (for $1100) BUT it is from an auto not manual, hence the next question from my mechanic.  Can a manual gearbox flywheel be fitted to an auto crankshaft and if any other ancillaries differ from the two motors apart from the clutch interlock with the ignition.

BTW as an aside the thin thrust bearing is about 1.5 mm thick. 

We tried to upload a video that I mentioned yesterday, but it appears that WAV file is to big.

[tw2005]

Hi Everybody, Do you want the good new or the bad news? 

Sorry guys there isn't any good news.  I went to the Hyundai dealership where the vehicle purchased after making an appointment to see the Service Manager and after telling him the story and him saying that the car is 6 months out of warranty, I pleaded some Hyundai "goodwill".  He proceeded to tell me that I'd have to get in contact with Hyundai Australia on an 1800 number in Sydney and convey details to them.  But he said that in the meantime, and before I make contact with Sydney, that I have to have ALL receipts from every service not just the stamped service record book.  This is to supposedly confirm that the service was performed at the correct time and that the correct oil was used.

As my partner was endeavouring to obtain receipts, I got in touch with Sydney and told them the ordeal and mentioned the YouTube videos from Canada and I was told very promptly that this "goodwill" gesture is nothing to do with Canada.  I was told that the warranty had expired the car would have to be taken to a Hyundai dealership, where the motor would be dismantled by them.  I then got in contact with the second dealership where the oil problem was "not diagnosed" nor was the "sump gasket" replaced and spoke to the Service Manager, told him the story and he confirmed that I would have to tow the car to their premises, so that they could remove and dismantle the motor to investigate the "real problem".  I asked for a budget figure as to what cost would be involved if the goodwill gesture was declined.  It could be declined if one receipt had not/could not be supplied and therefore a cost to me for the dismantling and investigation of the motor would be approximately $1500.

To which I replied that I'd already sourced a second hand motor - 2011 vintage G4GC with 40,000 km on it (for $1100) BUT it is from an auto not manual, hence the next question from my mechanic.  Can a manual gearbox flywheel be fitted to an auto crankshaft and if any other ancillaries differ from the two motors apart from the clutch interlock with the ignition.

BTW as an aside the thin thrust bearing is about 1.5 mm thick. 

We tried to upload a video that I mentioned yesterday, but it appears that WAV file is to big.

No surprsie. I've been down this road with Mitsubishi and how in some countries they can have service bulletins acknowledging a design flaw and fix and yet in australia, total denial and refute of the claim.

anyway, typical tactics and scare tactics. Comes down to your own principles and resolve but I would be looking at consumer agencies. The you must have every receipt also seems a tactic as how many hold on to those. The fact that the books are stamped with an official stamp and should have the dealer details plus I presume there databases would have in there everything done to the car. They may not be linked nationally but in this day an age potentially. If you've had it from new and only ever had it serviced at one dealer it would be a benefit. Also if paid credit card could find evidence in there.

I'm not in a postion regarding the engineering but unless there is significant damage I'd be tempted to replace the thrust washers and see how it goes. What the worst thing that can happen? Same failure and if it did then you'd go right, replace it it but boy you'd have to consider dropping the pan and inspecting or replacing those bearings straight up as a preventative if they're a weak spot on any replacement you source.

I was in a bad spot with the Mits trans failure, 60000k after full "Rebuild" Sourced a used box and decided to check the known wave spring which fails and destroys the box. Could have just put it in and would have worked but boy, it was the right move, wave spring was in pieces. Put the revised part in and that box was the best box that car ever had..

Good luck.

[tw2005]

Thrust bearing thickness new, 2.44 ~ 2.47mm

[tw2005]

If for example you were to order a genuine long motor then there is only one choice and it would be supplied minus any flywheel or flexplate. These would come from your existing unit.
Dopn't know enough to comment more, last time I pulled a manual box out of something it had a spigot bearing in the crankshaft for the input shaft to mate with. Auto does not have that but in this day and age I don't know what they have.

I think about 25 years ago was my last clutch / gearbox endeavour

If you were doing this, typically you'd go the whole hog and take the opportunity to replace the clutch components, machine flywheel, replace main oil seal.

If they're all perfect and maybe in the short term you may get rid of the car understandably you'd look at places to save $$

[nzenigma]

Hi all, job well done this end 
but as expected, the Dealers are ducking for cover.
@2xcatz , with our bosses' consent it will be helpful if you name the dealers.  @Dazzler your thoughts?
 I think this thread may get Hyundai's attention as this problem will surface again now that we are aware of the Canadian failures.

The simple answer to your auto/manual motor exchange question, is yes they are interchangeable.
Just fit your flywheel etc. and as tw has said you will need to buy a spigot bearing.
He has also suggested a cheaper option where you fit a new thrust bearing to this motor. In the interim, it gets you back on the road quicker. But get ACCC advice first. Document everything.

If this was my car, two dealers would be copping  writs by now. A dealer is hyundai's Australian representative, a dealer has sold you the car, another dealer has attended to your oil loss and has apparently deceived you for financial gain (a criminal offence). If either dealer feels the problem lies at Hyundai's doorstep, then that dealer must negotiate with Hyundai. NOT you.

Go to the ACCC site. A lot to read; but, you will find that Australian Consumer Law is on your side.

"Businesses that sell goods guarantee that those goods:
•are of acceptable quality - the goods must be safe, lasting, have no faults, look acceptable and do all the things someone would normally expect them to do
•are fit for any purpose that the consumer made known to the business before buying (either expressly or by implication), or the purpose for which the business said it would be fit for "


Typically, the dealer is trying to fob you off, so it is now up to you to get ACCC advice and then take it up with your dealer. The dealer must act in a timely manner.
You may be aware that you do not have to have periodic serving done by a Hyundai dealer. A qualified mechanic is sufficient.
 Also, I would resist this:  " tow the car to their premises, so that they could remove and dismantle the motor to investigate the "real problem". "
1. they have already had that chance, given their actions at that time, one could not trust them.
2. you already have a mechanic who has done this investigation.
3. presumably they are able to come to his workshop to observe .
4. if the dealer did get the motor out, and given his past deception and 'incompetence' how can you trust his ability, judgement or willingness not to deceive you further.

Please stay in touch, Cheers, Gary

[Dazzler]

@nzenigma

We've only heard one side of the story. I have no reason to doubt the facts, but naming the dealer/s probably won't prove much in this instance. It's a complicated one with lots of twists and turns. It is out of warranty and a 3rd party mechanic has been involved who doesn't appear to be a Hyundai expert. 

I do have the utmost empathy with 2xcatz though. 

[nzenigma]

All valid points Dazz, that's why I threw it in your lap. 

2xcats is going to need to do some hard yards before resolution.

Irrespective , I think this seal issue has legs; and will reappear.

 

[beerman]

Legal is always fun.

I would make the following points.

A mechanic is only obligated to work to their ability, the defence by the dealer would be the mechanic was trusted and competent but on this occasion has missed what appears to be a rare fault. They were not given further opportunities to rectify the issue. From my reading the Non Hyundai mechanic has had reign free of Hyundai's stated policies re issues to tinker and find.

Secondly to suggest fraud from a mistaken repair would need to prove that at the time the mechanic knew that they hadn't fixed the car. Good luck with that.

The third and final point is that Hyundai would argue that at some point the owner has done something that contributed to the issue (accident/unauthorised repair/ bad oil). I had a radiator go on the i30 and took it in under warranty. As soon as the issue was confirmed, the questions started about front end damage, a non genuine clip (that my mechanic put on as part of his diagnosis etc). They were fairly easily batted away, but lets just say my wife had previously had a minor prang.  'No mate thats damage from the accident speak to your insurance' insurance: 'We have a inspection report that shows the vehicle was 100% when we returned it to you'. Before you know it your spending more than the cost of the replacement arguing with two different lawyered up companies about a $300 part.

Speak to the ACCC about your rights, they are the champions here. They should be able to cut through the BS and give you advice. When you send a well drafted email that states that you have consulted with the ACCC and they have indicated your rights are x,y,z. They should sit up and take notice. The last thing you want is to get into a lawyer fight.

[nzenigma]

Legal is always fun.

Speak to the ACCC about your rights, they are the champions here. They should be able to cut through the BS and give you advice. When you send a well drafted email that states that you have consulted with the ACCC and they have indicated your rights are x,y,z. They should sit up and take notice. The last thing you want is to get into a lawyer fight.

Absolutely, With a few exceptions that I greatly admire, high end lawyers are a pretty UNscurrilous group . (that's why I do my own writs  )

A mechanic is only obligated to work to their ability, the defence by the dealer would be the mechanic was trusted and competent but on this occasion has missed what appears to be a rare fault.

Working to ability, agreed, but will the dealer be able to demonstrate that he is sufficiently competent to be employed in this area? 
"Appears to be a rare fault", how do we know? Are they going to bugle a recall on this? Or have they been burying the evidence in the hope that owners like 2cats and the Canadians will give up?

[tw2005]

Some further reading  I was doing.

There's actually a few reports of the issue over the years including earlier generation Elantra as well. Interesting to read some.

Thrust Bearing Failure Prevention & Analysis | MOTOR


In addition, on manual transmission vehicles, the use of starter lockout systems (where the clutch pedal must be depressed in order to start the engine) adds to the problem, since this places forward pressure to the crankshaft during starting, when there’s little or no oil lubrication on the thrust bearing surfaces. Bearing manufacturers have tried to address these OE-inherent problems by adding a fine dispersal of silicon to the bearing matrix and by designing angled ramp areas on the thrust faces that help to promote oil delivery to the thrust areas.

03 elantra with 44000 miles thrust bearing gone cause - 2003 Hyundai Elantra

[tw2005]

Thrust Washer Comes Out Of The Motor Frame? - Hyundai Forums : Hyundai Forum

Crank Thrust Bearing - Hyundai Aftermarket.org

[Dazzler]

 

[tw2005]

2003 Hyundai Elantra Front Crank Seal: Engine Mechanical Problem ...

03 Crankshaft Seal Unseating - Hyundai Forums : Hyundai Forum

[nzenigma]

Gerard, you are now the forum's little ferret. Mate, this one is a paid job , unlike our last one.
 There is obviously a thrust bearing problem out there.
Hyundai has probably kept a lid on it because it is generally being reported by Americans.

It also seems to be the earlier 2003 era Elantra, I'm guessing because they rat on without being specific.

Now you know why I have dementia after trolling the BMW sites dominated by motor-mouth Americans .

eg.   THE QUESTION: "The dealer diagnosed the thrust washers coming out of the motor frame and causing seals to come off/out as the problem and my car now needs a new motor."
 THE REPLY: I do not own an Elantra, but cannot figure out where on the engine you would have thrust washers!?! A thrust bearing maybe, on a gas turbine, maybe, but on a piston engine??? I am baffled."
 

Good work mate...keep beavering, 

[2xcatz]

Well it's not 2xCatz typing, but the man who is doing all the chasing etc.  Now I have heaps to tell you, but at this point in time I have another question for the team of brothers and I mean team as it appears to be getting bigger in numbers. 

I have just got off the phone to 3 dealers here in Melbourne to locate a spigot bearing for my second hand i30 2.0L petrol auto motor, but all dealers say that there is NO spigot bearing listed even after one dealer rang Hyundai Sydney.  After talking to the spare parts guys I explained to them that I have used bronze bushes/bearings myself for my toys over the years like in my Triumph TR6, MGB and Midget which locates into the flywheel end of the crankshaft to support the end of the first motion shaft protruding out the front of the gearbox to support this shaft when the gearbox is out of gear. So team could I impose on you again to see what you can track down for me please?  If it's to difficult don't worry as I pick up the second hand motor on Saturday morning and will be taking out the problem child hopefully over the weekend too.  I will have to get the flywheel off the old motor and have it machined next week. I have a new water pump, cam belt and 3 piece clutch kit to be installed when the replacement motor goes in. The water pump was a just in case it's needed item.

[tw2005]

Can't help for now could be called pilot bearing - crank. Maybe when you get it out you'll be able to work it out or get a number off it

[2xcatz]

Thanks tw and if it is a bush, I have removed before them out by hydraulic means.  That is filled the bush up with grease then machined, as I do have a lathe, a piece of rod to suit just under the ID like 0.002" of the bush ID then hit the other end of this rod with a hammer.  The grease which is inside the back end of the bush in the crank pushes out the bush no problems.  By the way John is my name.

I agree with a lot of the discussions so far, but as some else has mentioned we are taking the easy way out in particularly the financial easy way.  By the way one of the people who serviced the car at least three times is now out of business.  2xcatz used to live in Geelong 100 kms from where she bought the car from here in the burbs of Melbourne, yes that's where I live.  So just another nail in our coffin as one dealer told me if we don't have all the service receipts their goodwill offer could not be offered, yes another way out.

[nzenigma]

You can do that with grease , bread or oiled tissue paper too, and on a ball race. Which may be your best option as you can measure it precisely and go to a bearing specialist.
The UK is out of stock on them too. Obviously not much call.

[tw2005]

I'm starting to get the impression there is no bushing or bearing. Nothing in the parts breakdown but on a video of a box just separated I see nothing.  That's on the generation before.

[nzenigma]

I'm starting to get the impression there is no bushing or bearing. Nothing in the parts breakdown but on a video of a box just separated I see nothing.  That's on the generation before.

so... wipes brow..., now I have to go down to shed #2 and have a look,  jezzz talk about a bad hair day 

[tw2005]

I'm starting to get the impression there is no bushing or bearing. Nothing in the parts breakdown but on a video of a box just separated I see nothing.  That's on the generation before.

so... wipes brow..., now I have to go down to shed #2 and have a look,  jezzz talk about a bad hair day 

IT's all down hill. 
P.S. Take a camera