i30 Owners Club

GOT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES? => DIESEL => Topic started by: Mike8 on October 29, 2017, 01:28:29

Title: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on October 29, 2017, 01:28:29
As I mentioned in previous posts under "General Discussion", my i30 was making an unhealthy sound which was determined to be a timing chain problem. But due to the cost and complexity of doing the repairs with the engine still in the car, my mechanic suggested we get a low mileage motor from a Hyundai wrecker on the Sunshine Coast. He got one with supposedly 75,000 on it, where mine was up at just over 252,000kms. Sounded like a good idea.

I picked it up yesterday with glowing reports from him about what a lovely little car it is to drive. I hadn't gone more than 100 metres in it, when I put the foot down a bit in second gear, and it just died! It restarted OK, but each time I tried to accelerate, it would do it again. By "dying" I mean the engine would stop completely once I put my foot on the clutch,and I had to turn the ignition off and on again to restart it. I went straight back to him, and he took it for a drive, after he connected an OBD2 scanner. It gave us a P0087, "low fuel rail pressure" fault, and P1185, same descriptor. We surmised that since the new engine came with a high pressure pump, but no injectors, and we changed the injectors out of my old engine into the new one, maybe there is a mismatch, and the pump doesn't handle enough volume. We could only get the motor up to 2,500 rpm before it cutout each time.

I still took the car, thinking I could just drive slowly, but it is almost undriveable, very hard to takeoff with cars behind and not "peeve them off" with my slowness, and even in 5th gear,top speed is just over 105KPH before it dies again. Taking the live data stream from the OBD scanner, fuel rail pressure ranges from about 40 bar when decelerating, to over 135 bar when accelerating, and just before the point where it dies.  Without knowing specs, that seems high enough to me.

Also, this engine does seem anywhere near as powerful as the old one, in that previously, one could really feel the turbo "kick in" from 1500 rpm, but this one is a bit higher at about 1800, and then not the strong surge I felt with the old motor. So I have a very narrow range in which I can drive the car, if I have to keep revs between 1800 and 2400, the gap between 2nd/3rd gears is much wider that that.

I think I'll take it back this afternoon. He is going to contact the supplier of the engine for some ideas on Monday morning, as it sounds like he is fairly "cluey" on Hyundais. I've suggested to my mechanic that we take the pump off my old engine and put it on the new one, but that will require me to make the special tool to remove the pump, something that might take me a couple of days in between working to pay the bills.

I,m now thinking I would like to repair the timing chain problem in the old engine, now that it's out, and then swap it back into the car, then sell off the spare one.

Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: mickd on October 29, 2017, 03:15:51
Hi Mike8,
Bummer, talk about a let down  :Shocked:  :crazy1:
Don't know enough re: diesels to make useful suggestions, others will.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: sundiz on October 29, 2017, 04:46:26
Issue with the fuel filter may also cause those codes. I assume you used old ecu to control new engine. I think it would be fine as the old injectors are coded in the ecu.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: tw2005 on October 29, 2017, 09:26:08
I'd be looking for things not connected fuel rail related. I'm not buying the mismatch theory, the engine may not be optimal until the injectors are coded but since you say no injectors came with and your old ones went back in, then your diligent mechanic would have noted which  cylinder each injector came out of anf installed into the same cylinder on the replacement? Yes? if he did then they are already coded to the ECU .

I can say I felt no difference and had no improvement in performance when I had my ecu coded to the replacement motor's injectors.

P1185 Fuel Pressure Monitoring-Maximum Pressure Exceeded

P1185 is set when 1)rail press. is higher than target rail press. by 200~350bar in condition that rail press. is controlled by Fuel pressure regulator valve or 2)rail press. exceeds maximum limiting value. This code is due to 1)more than intended fuel supply to common rail or 2)poor return of fuel supplied to common rail or 3)short to high voltage line in fuel press. sensor.

Fuel pressure regulator valve(open stuck)
● Rail pressure regulator valve(close stuck)
● Rail pressure sensor(Output fixed at high voltage line)


P0087 Rail Pressure Monitoring-Minimum Pressure at Engine Speed Too Low

P0087 is set when rail pressure is lower than target rail pressure by more than 200~150bar for more than 1.0 sec. in condition that rail press. is controlled by rail pressure control valve(PCV) or rail pressure is below the minimum limiting value(50~280bar). This code is due to 1)fuel less than target value supplied to common rail or 2)excessive return of fuel supplied to common rail or 3)short to low voltage line in fuel press. sensor.

   Fuel metering unit(close stuck)
● Rail pressure control valve(open stuck)
● Rail pressure sensor(Output fixed at low voltage line)


and why it cuts out:

ECM shuts engine down and sets DTC by limiting fuel (stops injector operation) in order to prevent engine from being controlled abnormally for both P1185, P0087

(https://i.imgur.com/395DUKj.jpg)

Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on October 29, 2017, 11:54:53
Thanks for that info TW, I'll check with the mechanic tomorrow about whether or not each injector was marked and went back into the same cylinder. It's not something I would have been aware of, so if I'd done it, I could certainly say they didn't.

I thought most diesel injectors ran at 1-200 bar, so to see the max pressure on this one at 1800 bar is phenomenal, that's over 26,000 psi. (But then the last diesel I worked on is the one I'm standing next to in the photo, a 1951 Southern Cross 4 H.P. air cooled, 32 volt lighting plant!) So maybe my pressure is way below what it should be, as it only reaches 140 bar just before the engine cuts out. I'll show this post to the mechanic tomorrow afternoon when I see him, and he will be calling his "knowledge source" in the morning.

I now have the old motor at home with me, and have just been making room in the shed to work on it. Hopefully,I'll know soon what was causing the noise, and hopefully repair it.

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: tw2005 on October 29, 2017, 13:36:26
Yeah, I'm no diesel specialist. Just copying out of the manual but I have had my injectors coded and understand in principle. It won't be that though that's the issue.

sent an email, hopefully there's enough useful data in there to fault find
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: sesel on October 30, 2017, 20:35:42
First place to start, Clean EGR valve, Air filter and wastegate
Second Check fuel metering selenoid if working correctly, use voltmeter to check current.
Check for any lose connection especially under the battery tray.
If not working then sell it.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on October 31, 2017, 11:34:11
Thanks Sesel, who would buy it if it doesn't go, thanks for the advice all the same! Thanks for the email Gerard. Most useful while I'm still learning to use the electronic workshop manual.

The mechanic called today, and reckons it's the fuel pressure regulator on top of the high pressure pump. So I've taken the one off the old engine, now in my workshop, and will give it to him in the morning. Hope that fixes it. He has already fitted a new fuel filter, but that didn't fix it.

Will keep you posted.

Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Dazzler on October 31, 2017, 20:30:55
Fingers crossed for you Mike..  :sweating:
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on October 31, 2017, 21:01:57
@Mike8 Mate, I don't think it is a big drama, you are just missing some point. Just to add to Gerard's info and your thoughts about the injector pressure.
The common rail (CRDi) system will run from 5000 psi up to 30,000 psi. Its dangerous so take care.
I probably know the supplier of your engine. They are ok blokes. The engine # and car vin # are recorded and will be on your receipt . So kms should be genuine.
You are achieving good pressure so the pump and valve should be good.
There is sensor on the end of the HP rail, ( screws in, looks like an oil pressure switch) if that has gunk in it the wrong signal is going to the ECU. You will get the symptoms described.
I would also check that all the lines to your turbo have been connected properly. eg. Are you getting boost?
There is a small plastic solenoid front of the motor, 3 rubber hoses go to it, check that it hasn't been broken
Irrespective of sesel's useful input  :rolleyes: These are proven trouble free motors so..... what has changed, very little!
Your old motor was going fine, just chain rattle.
The new motor - 99.9% chance it is ok.
Its 'finger trouble' as we used to say. My guess is that your mechanic has not connected something.
Good luck stay in touch.  :) G
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 01, 2017, 00:34:08
Thanks "NZ", I just got a message from the  mechanic, who said it's all fixed. I asked him if it was that regulator, and without elaborating, he said yes. I'll probably find out more this afternoon when I pick it up. Meanwhile, he did make the comment "They go quite well for a little diesel", so hopefully I feel it goes as well as the old one, because she was a real "flier" before. If not, I may be tempted to repair the old one and put it back in. I'm going to repair that timing chain problem anyway, and then decide what to do with it.

On another subject, can anyone tell me about the Hyundai GDS system? I've just ordererd a scanner off Ebay, because after this little drama, I want to get a bit more familiar with the car and ECUs. The workshop manual I bought from manualsonline.com seems to have the facility to integrate with GDS, and take you straight to the problem and the "fix". But maybe that will only work with a fully legit and registered copoy of the manual, and a genuine GDS unit. I found a GDS unit for about $138 on a website like "chinacars....", and was wondering if it would be worth getting that.

Thanks to everyone for their input, this has been a most enlightening experience, and great to see how everyone chips in to help.

Cheers,  Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 01, 2017, 01:36:14
That's good news Mike. Whatever he did,  :mrgreen: it goes .
 Gerard downloaded the GDS manual, its a huge file , and apparently has all Hyundai models. To my knowledge it is still the only source for HY diesel info.
The ebay scanner will give you codes and point you in the right direction.
Thanks for letting us know. Cheers G
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 01, 2017, 08:45:09
you didnt say what engine is in your car. 1.4 crdi , 1.6 crdi with 90 or 115 hp, 110, engine.. they are chain driven only.

How often did you changed oil? As some people done with this engine 500.000km with oem chain.

Well i also dont see why he changed the engine. Timing chain kit can be bought oem for 140eur with sprockets, guide rails, tensioners and what not..

Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: tw2005 on November 01, 2017, 09:21:33
you didnt say what engine is in your car. 1.4 crdi , 1.6 crdi with 90 or 115 hp, 110, engine.. they are chain driven only.

How often did you changed oil? As some people done with this engine 500.000km with oem chain.

Well i also dont see why he changed the engine. Timing chain kit can be bought oem for 140eur with sprockets, guide rails, tensioners and what not..

I bought a whole wreck for a chain noises :crazy1:
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 01, 2017, 11:43:00
Thanks NZ, I'm not sure if it's the same one I downloaded, probably not, but mine was about 16 or 18 Gb from memory, took all night and then some to download. Also got the parts manual, but I didn't have enough space on the computer to unpack it. I since had an old laptop rehashed to "factory new", and a 500Gb hard drive fitted, which I'm going to use just for technical manuals like these.

And for "Diesel1984", I change oil AND filter every 10,000kms, with only the best grades of oil. I don't think it's a maintenance issue, just a case of bad luck. It's a 1.6CRDI, we don't have the smaller one here in Oz that I'm aware of. Yes plenty of them do last the life of the engine, however, mine didn't. In case you didn't read the earlier posts, I was originally going to get the timing chain done, but was quoted $2,400 for parts by Hyundai Australia, with my mainstream mechanic quoting $1-2000 for labour, so it could have come close to $5,000. My "back yard" mechanic, on the other hand, was charging less than half the labour rate. He owns a racing car, and is the mechanic for it, and is a very capable man that I have known for over 10 years, and everyone I have spoken to that knows him, swears by his ability. I was going to source the parts for him from Koraps, hence my downloading the parts manual. But after he spoke to a few people who had done the job before, he said it was a very difficult job in the car, there would be quite a long wait for the parts, (even Hyundai here did not stock them),and he suggested a crate engine. I agreed. Then he found a good low kms engine at a Hyundai wrecker, at a VERY GOOD price. That is how we came about putting another engine in it. He also put a new clutch in it. All up it cost me $2,220. And I still have the old engine which I'll do the chain on myself, and possibly sell off,although I won't have any way of test running it. It would almost have to be installed in a car to test run it. I don't want to sell it untested.

The car goes very well, I'm very pleased with it, although it does still have a small problem with power/torque not coming on at the moment I expect it (1,500rpm), and sometimes, I felt the power dropping off at about 3,000rpm, but certainly not to any huge extent. I will wait till I get my new Ebay scan tool, and see what it shows. But it is great to be back in my seriously loved i30 again!

Once again, thanks to everyone for your help and input,

Mike. :happydance: :happydance: :goodjob2: :whistler:
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 01, 2017, 12:34:44
thats a lot of money for that job. My mechanic quoted 650euro for whole job with oil change and all oem parts with labour of course. 
He is specialised for korean and japan vehicles hyundai,kia,toyota,nissan,honda..
When i will need timing chain ill rather get it changed then buy a used engine.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 01, 2017, 20:33:28
thats a lot of money for that job. My mechanic quoted 650euro for whole job with oil change and all oem parts with labour of course. 
He is specialised for korean and japan vehicles hyundai,kia,toyota,nissan,honda..
When i will need timing chain ill rather get it changed then buy a used engine.

Mike got a good deal. He had the sense to stay away from any HY dealer. I have sourced almost brand new motors from his wrecker, dropped in - job done.
In Europe you have had a high % of diesel cars for a long time, therefore smaller mechanics have the right tools etc.
From your past post, your chain is grinding on a guide, that is not normal, it is overdue for a change, the engine is copping metal fragments.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: tw2005 on November 01, 2017, 20:40:39
thats a lot of money for that job. My mechanic quoted 650euro for whole job with oil change and all oem parts with labour of course. 
He is specialised for korean and japan vehicles hyundai,kia,toyota,nissan,honda..
When i will need timing chain ill rather get it changed then buy a used engine.

Mike got a good deal. He had the sense to stay away from any HY dealer. I have sourced almost brand new motors from his wrecker, dropped in - job done.
In Europe you have had a high % of diesel cars for a long time, therefore smaller mechanics have the right tools etc.
From your past post, your chain is grinding on a guide, that is not normal, it is overdue for a change, the engine is copping metal fragments.

Looking at some of the eye watering figures I'm  :rofl: Now where's my girl, TAXI! . Oh here she is (https://i.imgur.com/oYrpZho.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/3u3kLlHs.jpg)
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 01, 2017, 20:56:35
Thanks NZ, I'm not sure if it's the same one I downloaded, probably not, but mine was about 16 or 18 Gb from memory,
The car goes very well, I'm very pleased with it, although it does still have a small problem with power/torque not coming on at the moment I expect it (1,500rpm), and sometimes, I felt the power dropping off at about 3,000rpm, but certainly not to any huge extent. I will wait till I get my new Ebay scan tool, and see what it shows. But it is great to be back in my seriously loved i30 again!
Once again, thanks to everyone for your help and input,Mike. :happydance: :happydance: :goodjob2: :whistler:

Thanks for the thanks Mike. As above, that was more than fair price for Australia. Yes , you have the correct monster download. :mrgreen:
Have a think before you repair the old one, given that they are readily available at the wreckers, and privately almost impossible to sell as your buyer can have complications with the WOVR.
 I have 5 low km motors sitting in my parts shed that will make great boat anchors. They are too reliable. The only time I will need one is if someone's wife rips a sump and keeps driving. :cool:
Regarding the cars performance, I am still suspicious of the turbo set up. Its a manual, it should perform like a sports car.
Take the top cover off and follow the downloaded diagrams to check everything is in place, no fractured hoses etc.
And don't get in a lather looking for Sesel's wastegate, like most diesels, it doesn't have one.
Cheers G
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 01, 2017, 21:34:32
thats a lot of money for that job. My mechanic quoted 650euro for whole job with oil change and all oem parts with labour of course. 
He is specialised for korean and japan vehicles hyundai,kia,toyota,nissan,honda..
When i will need timing chain ill rather get it changed then buy a used engine.

Mike got a good deal. He had the sense to stay away from any HY dealer. I have sourced almost brand new motors from his wrecker, dropped in - job done.
In Europe you have had a high % of diesel cars for a long time, therefore smaller mechanics have the right tools etc.
From your past post, your chain is grinding on a guide, that is not normal, it is overdue for a change, the engine is copping metal fragments.
For prices.. yes we have a lot of choices and a lot of cars.  Bare used engine "block and head" with low km is here around 800-1000eur. Labour to change it is around 100-200eur. So lets say at half.

chain noise
I can bet that this 75.000km low km engine have the same sound as my 200.000km engine. I have this same sound for at last 180.000km
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 01, 2017, 21:41:06
  :undecided:  Mike and Gerard are the ones to bet with. They have experienced the old rattle and the new.

"Labour to change it is around 100-200eur. So lets say at half." (=150?)
 To remove and strip a motor; refit parts and install the new motor is about 8hrs labour, if all goes well. Therefore the workshop is charging 12.5 -25 Eur/hour.  What do they pay the mechanic in Europe  :'( ?
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 01, 2017, 21:45:16
I'm not sure what happened with Gerard's chain.  I know he asked something about the noise

Yes.. around 20eur for working hour at specialised shop, 33eur at hyundai dealer.. cmon you can change the whole clutch kit labour with gearbox oil change for 70eur.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 03, 2017, 11:47:34
Hey Diesel84, I should put my old girl on a boat to Europe, and get her repaired there! Then I can have a quick holiday in the snow at the same time(not being facetious, I love Europe, and the cold). But I do believe I was well looked after by the mechanic. Other than paying for the fuel filter, $40,and a six pack of exotic ale, $25, to cover the cost of borrowing a scanner, he refused to take any more money for labour when I took it back to him.

Thanks again "NZ" and "TW". I must say I am very happy with the new motor, it goes at least a well as the old one, and yes, I do class it as almost sports car performance. Especially when going up my driveway at home, which is uphill, and without dropping the clutch, just putting the foot down, will start the wheels spinning on the bitumen, in second gear. In the wet, I have to very careful, she'll spin them easily in third too.

After I picked it up from the mech, while it went very well, with tons of torque, I noticed a couple of times that the motor got to about 3,000 and just "levelled off" the power. putting the foot down further didn't help. But if I took my foot off, and then put it back down, it seemed to come right and go like the clappers again. It just felt like the turbo boost was dropping off for some reason. I also noticed the turbo "grunt" didn't happen until 1,800 to 2,000, whereas before, with the old motor, it cut in reliably at 1,500 every time. I didn't tell the mech about it, thought I'd wait till my new scanner turned up, which it did the very next day, a day earlier than promised by the Ebay seller. So I plugged it in and went for a drive. All was well, with MAP showing up to 255 Kpa at full throttle each time. Then, it "played up" again, and I glanced at the scanner, and MAP was dropping rapidly down to 140. Pumping the accelerator once saw it jump up quickly to 255, and the full power come on again. I dropped in the see Rob (the mechanic) this afternoon after work, and managed to "force" a little cash between his fingers. He was also very impressed with my code scanner, and said he would order one for himself. I mentioned the little problem, but he couldn't shed any light on it, not that I wanted him to, he's had enough of it for now. But he's also very impressed with the Diesel i30, and now wants to buy one for his daughter.

This afternoon, I did as "NZ" suggested, and checked all the hoses around the turbo, and that solenoid at the front of the engine with three hoses going to it, but nothing seemed amiss. I still have to familiarise myself more with the manual, and find that diagram you mentioned, and see if I can pick the problem any better. The problem does seem to be getting worse, with it happening quite a lot, and no turbo boost till well over 2,000 rpm. Hopefully, it'll make it easier to find. I'm in the electrical/refrigeration game, and we often say that an electrical fault that may trip an earth leakage breaker with a few milliamps fault current can be difficult to trace, but in the old days before ELCBs, there was nothing to trip until the fault current reached many amps,and eventually "blew out" with a bright blue flash, which invariably made it easier to pinpoint. :rofl: I'll have a drive of about 140 km tomorrow, and will again connect the scantool, and see if I get any closer to the problem.

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 03, 2017, 16:06:10
You must say some more details for someone to help you..for the swap. Did you used the same engine hp? U1 or u2? Was it the swap with turbocharger,sensors,ecu.. and other stufff or only bare block with head? Partial swap with sensors and only old turbo and injectors? Hp pump? Intake manifold plastic or metal? Dpf +, dpf- ?There can be a few differences?
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 03, 2017, 21:21:57
The problem does seem to be getting worse, with it happening quite a lot, and no turbo boost till well over 2,000 rpm. Hopefully, it'll make it easier to find. I'm in the electrical/refrigeration game, and we often say that an electrical fault that may trip an earth leakage breaker with a few milliamps fault current can be difficult to trace, but in the old days before ELCBs, there was nothing to trip until the fault current reached many amps,and eventually "blew out" with a bright blue flash, which invariably made it easier to pinpoint. :rofl: I'll have a drive of about 140 km tomorrow, and will again connect the scantool, and see if I get any closer to the problem.

Cheers, Mike.

Mike, check and clean MAF / MAP sensors. You can probably swap the old into the new to test. Sorry, had a feeling that your guy hadn't solved it properly. You are using the right approach though.
 I also spent time in the old school electrical trade. TVs with an intermittent fault , a 'dog', as we called them, were both a pain and a challenge. You could never recover the full labour cost of something that may take several days to fail.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 03, 2017, 21:53:07
You must say some more details for someone to help you..for the swap. Did you used the same engine hp? U1 or u2? Was it the swap with turbocharger,sensors,ecu.. and other stufff or only bare block with head? Partial swap with sensors and only old turbo and injectors? Hp pump? Intake manifold plastic or metal? Dpf +, dpf- ?There can be a few differences?

We don't have DPF. All 1.6L  Plastic manifold was GD. U2 was in last FDs onward. The supplier knows i30s and 90% chance he would have supplied FD motor for an FD. Irrespective, once in the car, the once bare motor will run or it wont. The variable performance is a non-mechanical fault.

Yes.. around 20eur for working hour at specialised shop, 33eur at hyundai dealer.. cmon you can change the whole clutch kit labour with gearbox oil change for 70eur.

You don't state your location. Your local rates will vary eg. Germany vs. Greece  etc . To compare your situation with Australia is a bit futile.
Now 20 -30 eur/hr  is the mechanic's wage, similar rates here in Au$. BUT! that is not what the workshop charges; far from it!
The shop has overheads and an owner who would like to make a profit.
As before, I would quote Mike's job based on 8 hours labour. You also need to allow for down time if you need to source a replacement motor.

Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 03, 2017, 22:23:10
Thanks "NZ", you've answered "Diesel" very well. I knew they made this engine in several different horsepowers, but I would not have any idea what mine is. U1 or U2?? AND very interesting what you say about DPF.... I have asked the Hyundai dealer twice about whether or not mine has a DPF, and they couldn't tell me! They said they would have to get a mechanic to look at it,and that would cost me, so I've been buying oil to suit the DPF, so that I would not damage it if I did have one. What an enlightenment! And the dealer could not tell me! Also, basically bare engine, with diesel pump, but no injectors, no turbo, no ex. manifold, no flywheel. It had an inlet manifold, but the old engine had it removed, and in the box with all other bits and pieces, so not sure if the new engine has my old manifold or the one that came with it.

Further on rates. When I asked my mechanic before he started, how much he charges for labour, he said $30 to 50 per hour. I said I'd happily pay him 50, because the other mechanic, who runs a business, and has to make a profit, and maintains commercial premises, has to train staff, pay holiday and sick leave etc, keeps a large stock of spares and oils, greases, coolants etc, charges $125 per hour. Now normally I don't mind paying a business a reasonable charge for work done, however, going through some "crap" in my personal life, has left me rather low on funds, and combined with the commercial bloke saying he couldn't do the job for 6 weeks due to a backlog of work, I was more than happy to use my old mate. Besides, I would hate to hear what the Hy dealer charges, but I will endeavour to find out for you.

Cheers, Mike.

P.S. Just tried to preview this post using the keyboard shortcut alt + p, and it opened a new window to translate to another language. I'll use the button as previously.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 03, 2017, 22:47:40
Just clarify My " we don't have DPF", it may be on this years i30, @Dazzler will know, but not the previous FD or GD models.
The Santa Fe and ix35 have had DPF for a couple of years.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Dazzler on November 04, 2017, 09:29:25
Just clarify My " we don't have DPF", it may be on this years i30, @Dazzler will know, but not the previous FD or GD models.
The Santa Fe and ix35 have had DPF for a couple of years.

Yes, apparently DPF is on the Aussie delivered PD i30 Diesel. But as you say not te FD or GD in Oz.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 05, 2017, 01:10:56
I better not buy the new model then, I'm told DPFs can be a lot of trouble,and to replace one costs more than a timing chain! :faint: :fum:.

I went for my drive yesterday, and after about 20 minutes on the road, I had practically no turbo boost at all below 3,500 revs. below that, only minimal, MAP around 105 to 115kpa, or 5 to 15 kpa of boost. I called the mechanic about it, as I was thinking that maybe the turbo had seized, or at least got "tight" and not spinning freely. He said it was possible, especially how he saw me pull up at his place on Friday avo, and noticed I switched the engine off the moment I pulled up. He said "Don't you let it idle for a few seconds before turning the engine off?". He said,"It's got a turbo, and it needs time to slow down, before you turn off the engine, because it can still be spinning at high speed, and then it loses oil pressure". Well, I responded that I thought that only applied to after market turbos, and that if that was a requirement, it would have a built in turbo timer. So I decided to check the vehicle handbook (if all else fails.... read the instructions :lol:), and it states, "After high speed or extended driving requiring a heavy engine load, idle the engine for about 1 minute before turning it off. This idle time will allow the turbocharger time to cool prior to shutting the engine off". I always thought that the turbo timers were for cooling, rather than oil supply. So, does anybody just turn the engine off immediately? Or do most idle the engine for a few seconds before shut down?

I drove the rest of the way to my destination cautiously, so as not to "force" the turbo to spin hard. When I left there a couple of hours later, she performed like the devil again, with heaps of turbo boost from down low. As it warmed up, the revs at which turbo boost would come in increased quickly. But 30 minutes into the return journey, I stopped at a bakery for a pie, (Calliope Bakery, best pies in Qld :winker: only 2 mins off the Bruce, in case anyone passes this way), I was only out of the car for about 2 mins, and with the motor and turbo still hot, took off, and the turbo boost was good again. so it's not seizing or getting tight when hot, methinks. I'm going out to it now, to have a look at her again, and check the MAF and MAP sensors.

Unfortunately,I can't find a diagram of the turbo system or even any mention of the turbo in my manual, I must be looking in the wrong place. Maybe tw or NZ can point me to where it is. There is that vacuum actuator on top of the turbo, which looks like it might divert exhaust gases around the turbo, thereby controlling it's operation, but I can't get a good look in that area. Anyone confirm that?

Also, looking through the manual on the computer, there is a lot of reference to tests with the scan tool, reading things that mine doesn't show. It does say that they are using the GDS scantool, so how do the rest of you go with scan tools? Ordinary cheapies off Ebay like I did, or do you use a GDS one. Chinacardiags have one for $US119, but I doubt it would be genuine at that price. Not sure if it will interface with the electronic service manual either. Does anyone have any experience before I shell for that needlessly?

Regards,

Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 05, 2017, 03:57:52
Hi Mike,

This will give you a heads up on the Common Rail system. The concept is basically the same with all. http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~sandalci/dersnotu/AKTraining.pdf (http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~sandalci/dersnotu/AKTraining.pdf)

Re the scanner. The ebay one is fine. All you want is to read data, trouble codes and to erase them. Assume you have none???

Your mechanic is correct about letting the turbo idle so that it will cool down and wont fry the lubricant sitting in it. But, they are not a high performance turbo and the average Joe forgets ( self included), and they rarely fail, otherwise the i30 would have a timer as standard equipment.

The sensors are worth a check but MAP is probably reading the lack of boost correctly.

"There is that vacuum actuator on top of the turbo, which looks like it might divert exhaust gases around the turbo, thereby controlling it's operation, but I can't get a good look in that area. Anyone confirm that?"

The actuator is opening the fan veins to allow the turbo to spin. As I said before, forget the keyboard warriors who are repeating stuff they have only read about wastegates.
This is how the i30 turbo works.
 :link: Stop screw adjustment - adjusting Turbo VNT stop screw (https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/adjusting-vnt.html)

The mechanic has fitted your old turbo that was working ok??????? so its probably not the problem. Hopefully he didn't get desperate and start adjusting it.

The ECU gets data ( from the MAF sensor among other things) and is pulsing a turbo vacuum control valve to open part way or fully. {trace lines back from the actuator to find it} When vacuum can reach the actuator, it pulls up, fan shape changes and boost begins.

As said before not much has changed. The motor is mechanical, it will go or stop. So think about what would heat affect = electrical components, GASKETS (manifold???) rubber hoses will split or suck flat with vacuum. Check sensor on top of intercooler RH beside the Rad.
Cheers G

PS. the turbo operation is delayed by a temp sensor for cold starts..Explore!
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: tw2005 on November 05, 2017, 05:03:36
I think generally if I've come straight off the highway and pull up I'd let it idle a bit or if I had been racing but mostly I cruise into home at a gentle pace and turn it off within 30 secs or straight away. No issues and 211000 k on this thing and not a hint of any issues in fact it runs better and quieter than the wagon setup with around 60000k.

here's a question , what does the user manual say?
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 05, 2017, 10:18:22
All you can do is to take a few pictures of engine and post them here. Then someone can  tell you if somethig is wrong connected. Vac system is very easy on this but yes you can mess it.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 05, 2017, 11:34:55
Thanks NZ, you are right, no codes popping up, and yes, the old turbo is the same one now, and was working fine, a definite kick in the pants from 1500 rpm every time. I have traced the vacuum hoses from the vac pump to the three way solenoid valve, and back to the vacuum servo. I did figure out that the turbo is called a VGT, or Variable Geometry Turbo, so I figured that the servo must change the blades, or the flow around them. I also fitted a tee piece in the line to the servo,and ran a vac tube into the car, and then connected a vacuum gauge. Then, on a test drive, saw that when there is no vacuum, I have no turbo boost, and when it has vacuum on it, I get good boost. So I have ruled out the turbo itself. Now I want to run a small twin cable from the solenoid valve to an LED in the car, so I can see what electrical signal that solenoid is getting. I have found from the manual that it's a PWM signal at about 300 Hz, so I should see a varying brightness of the LED as it modulates. This is beginning to indicate that the ECU is controlling the turbo, as it should,but now to discover why. What has changed, or what is changing, that is causing the ECU to put the brakes on the turbo? And that is where I feel the GDS scan tool may provide more information. The only other possibility that it is a mechanical fault, is the vacuum pump that came on the new motor.... maybe it is not not pulling a constant vacuum. But I'm also bending away from that theory, because every time it has the low power/no boost problem, I can take my foot off the gas, and then put it down again, and then I get full turbo boost, which is born out by the reading on the vacuum gauge.

I also looked at the MAF sensor, couldn't see much, and it's well protected, and it is showing good response to the accelerator pedal on the scan tool. The MAP sensor only senses atmospheric pressure, and is built into the ECU, but the one that matters is the Boost Pressure Sensor (yes, a bit confusing, because that's the one I/we usually refer to as the MAP or Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor). When I took it out, it was covered in black engine oil. I have noticed previously when servicing the car, and I've taken the air inlet hose off the turbo to access the fuel filter, that the inside of the turbo always has a thin film of engine oil on it. Another mate who is well into turbo 4WDs, told me that is quite normal. I checked with the manual, and it seemed only concerned with "is it covered in carbon deposits", no mention of oil. I attempted to test it on the bench with a 5 volt supply, and then measured the output from Pin 1 while I varied the pressure on it, but got an expected voltage, which didn't alter with pressure. When I went to fit it back into the car, and checked voltages there, I realised that the terminal numbers on the sensor,were opposite to the numbers shown in the manual, and I had it connected wrongly on the bench. Fortunately, it does not appear to have suffered any ill effects, and still outputs correctly and reports the temp and pressure correctly. I'll watch out for that in future, if I decide to test a component off the car. Don't believe everything you read in a manual!

That's all I have to report for now, will let you know what else I find,although it maybe a few days before I get time to do much,back to work Monday tomorrow :'( :(
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 05, 2017, 20:52:45
@Mike8 . Doing well mate, as per our training. Working logically using critical thinking.  :goodjob2:

I have been thinking about your problem, we need to go back to the start and work forward. There is one factor you seem to ignore and it has been bugging me,  I said this sounded like finger trouble,  its your mechanic -   :whistler: Sorry.

He was given a vehicle that, apart from chain rattle, drove fine.
He returned said vehicle with new motor and said it drove fine; it didn't.
He then found codes  :scared: ; was he using the borrowed scanner ????; he should have a basic OBD2 reader at least like your ebay one. If not why?
Did he read current or ancient codes? Did he clear them, did they return?
He changed the fuel filter that was functioning ---- ok not a major crime.
He swapped your fuel control valve and said problem fixed  :sweating:, returned car, a turbo/vacuum fault remains.

So you need to understand your mechanic's activity.
Consider the likelihood that you have, or HAD, 2 different faults...under the circumstances, highly unlikely

refit the original control valve and see if codes reappear?
If no codes...he was full of BullS
If there are codes, what else has he cocked up?
It is possible that he was dicking around with a full workshop scanner, which can alter the ECU and other data settings.
Not used to it, he has changed a function. For instance, did he tell your car it is an automatic?

A very small amount of oil in the turbo to cooler line is normal, it is from the turbo bearings.

Cheers  :goodjob2:


Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Dazzler on November 05, 2017, 21:16:07
@Mike8 As long as you are in the habit of doing a good (say 50km +) highway drive at least once every couple of weeks the DPF won't be a problem.   :goodjob:
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 06, 2017, 08:57:38
@Mike8 . Doing well mate, as per our training. Working logically using critical thinking.  :goodjob2:

I have been thinking about your problem, we need to go back to the start and work forward. There is one factor you seem to ignore and it has been bugging me,  I said this sounded like finger trouble,  its your mechanic -   :whistler: Sorry.

He was given a vehicle that, apart from chain rattle, drove fine.
He returned said vehicle with new motor and said it drove fine; it didn't.
He then found codes  :scared: ; was he using the borrowed scanner ????; he should have a basic OBD2 reader at least like your ebay one. If not why?
Did he read current or ancient codes? Did he clear them, did they return?
He changed the fuel filter that was functioning ---- ok not a major crime.
He swapped your fuel control valve and said problem fixed  :sweating:, returned car, a turbo/vacuum fault remains.

So you need to understand your mechanic's activity.
Consider the likelihood that you have, or HAD, 2 different faults...under the circumstances, highly unlikely

refit the original control valve and see if codes reappear?
If no codes...he was full of BullS
If there are codes, what else has he cocked up?
It is possible that he was dicking around with a full workshop scanner, which can alter the ECU and other data settings.
Not used to it, he has changed a function. For instance, did he tell your car it is an automatic?

A very small amount of oil in the turbo to cooler line is normal, it is from the turbo bearings.

Cheers  :goodjob2:

Auto mechanic who is working in 2017 and doesn't have OBD diagnostic equipment??  :scared:
I don't get this guy how he run his business?

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1059692/bye-old-mechanic-man-o.gif)

I'm not mechanic but I have diagnostics for various types of vehicles that I own.
For this hyundai-kia I own Carmann and Hi-scan with programming options.











Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 06, 2017, 18:57:52
That's because you can buy them for.......20-30 euro    :happydance:
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 07, 2017, 11:56:05
Hi again, NZ and Diesel, sorry I wasn't around last night, I was busy with a Taekwondo grading night, and that was followed by "the boss's dinner". I didn't get home till midnight, in bed by 12:30, and up for work again at 0400! I tell you, it took all of 3000 bar to fire my injectors this morning.... still don't know how I got through the day.

Thanks for comments, but let me explain a little more about my mechanic. He owns a straight line drag race car, not a dragster, but a big supercharged V8 with a driver's seat behind it and a car body dropped over the top of both. It is pretty successful, and he appears to know engines and cars fairly well. He told me he had been a workshop mechanic for several different employers back in the 70s and 80s, before he started work at the site where I now work. He has also done other similar jobs to mine, in that he has bought cars very cheaply with major problems, and he's sourced an engine or transmission at the right price, and put them together to make a good car that he has either passed on to his family, or sold for a modest profit.  However, those jobs didn't necessarily make him an expert in either Diesels, or modern computerised cars. His very good mate, who I also know, and is the driver of his race car, owns a scanner that he has used just for trouble codes when he's needed it up till now. He also borrowed another one from another mechanic mate of his, when I took the car back to him, and he did the replacement of that component on the injector pump,which I think is referred to as a fuel press regulator. But I doubt that he would have had a programmer, or made any alterations. He certainly gave me the impression that he wasn't the type to make changes "willy nilly", or make any changes or adjustments that he knew nothing about, unless he had very good advice. As far as not having his own, he seems to have gotten away with borrowing one up till now, as indeed I myself have up till now. But I'm fairly sure he would have ordered one himself by now, he seemed rather smitten with mine.

One of the reasons I am considering buying the GDS system,is that it gives a lot more information than my current scanner, AND it allows you to place the ECU into "component replacement mode", where the ECU will "learn" the characteristics of a new part like a sensor,and trim it to best suit the suit the engine and driving conditions. I feel my current problem is due some little mismatch in a part,which could even be the aforementioned regulator. I also feel the problem may be slowly fixing itself, by the computer slowly re-learning it's characteristics, as I'm not finding it a noticeable. Either that, or I'm getting used to it.

Anyway,my eyes are almost falling out of my face now, so I better get to bed.

Cheers all, Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 07, 2017, 20:04:58
You could do a basic re-learn by disconnecting the battery over night. Good luck.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 13, 2017, 12:09:18
Hi all, I think I've finally found it.... and fixed it! A small vacuum leak! Yes, NZ, you were right..... I guess I can blame the mechanic,but I'm not.

First, I fitted a pressure transducer to the vacuum line to the turbo servo, and an LED on the solenoid that controls it, and found that if vacuum dropped below about 30-32 kpa, I had practically no boost until engine revs picked up past 3,000, and above 40 kpa of vacuum (or -40kpa pressure), turbo boost was normal. After a lot of driving around with it,I still couldn't make "heads nor tails" as to why sometimes the vacuum would fall away, and not comeback. Then I changed the transducer to the vac pump line, and found it was as erratic as hell, in fact it behaves more like manifold vacuum on a petrol engine, the faster the revs, the lower the vacuum, and at idle, vacuum is highest. I presume that cylindrical item at the end of the intake camshaft is a vacuum pump.... so then on Sunday morning, I connected a second transducer up, so I had one on each tube, and could watch them simultaneously while driving. I had to drive for a good half hour before the vacuum dropped enough to cause the boost problem, and then still had no answers. Then, this morning, on the way to work, it hit me, I could see the vacuum drop off very slowly with steady driving and that turbo control solenoid apparently closed. Under certain driving conditions, mainly pumping the accelerator, that valve would open momentarily, and allow more vacuum to the actuator. But then the vacuum would slowly drop off again, like over a couple of minutes, and that is when I had no boost.

After work this avo, I pulled all the hoses off the steel tubes,and polished the steel with fine steel wool, applied a slight smear of vaseline to each tube and pushed the rubber tubes back on. I then started the engine, let the vacuum buildup to 61 kpa,then applied a pinch off tool to the rubber tube between the solenoid and the actuator, then turned off the engine. I came back an hour later, and the vacuum was still at 56 kpa, a huge advance on how fast it was dropping off while driving. I took it for another drive,and it has been great, no sign of losing vacuum there, or losing turbo boost, so finally, by checking and testing, and slowly getting closer to the problem, I finally snuck upon it and beat it!

In either two or four weeks time, I'll be heading down to Brizzy, and really looking forward to giving her a decent run. This engine is certainly not lacking in power, I'm very happy with it. And now, I'll have to start turning my attention to the timing chain in the old one.

(https://preview.ibb.co/bYMv5w/DSCF9322.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ejWHJG)

(https://preview.ibb.co/cB9RCb/Transducers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mK0oQw)

(https://preview.ibb.co/bNrZyG/Vacuumtubes.jpg) (https://ibb.co/egkuyG)
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: nzenigma on November 13, 2017, 20:31:08
@Mike8
Brilliant Mike.  :goodjob2: I may have been right , but it was your persistence and methodical fault finding process that won through.  :goodjob2: :goodjob2: :goodjob2:

To give you further praise; I get really frustrated that your practical hands-on skill and ability to think critically is rarely evident in today's society.

Best wishes , Gary
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: mickd on November 13, 2017, 23:22:55
Great stuff mike,
Most times the simplest take the longest to find.
Thank goodness for cable ties eh ,  :lol:  :goodjob:
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: Mike8 on November 15, 2017, 10:48:03
Yeah thanks Mick, I love cable ties,except most of the time when I want them, I can't find the right ones!

Hi Gary, yes, I do prefer to "nut out the problem", rather than just try this and that and using trial and error, and never really knowing what fixed it, or worse, not fixing it at all. I think it's a part of my 60s, 70s and 80s upbringing. It's sure a good feeling when you finally "hit the nail on the head", even when it is one of the simplest fixes.

Now I'm looking forward to driving down to Brizzy in a few weeks, as that is what started the saga. I was heading down there a few weeks back, and before leaving, dropped in on the mechanic to give him a listen to the noise..... and this is how it ended up! :crazy1:

Cheers,

Mike.
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: tw2005 on November 15, 2017, 12:23:57
Yeah thanks Mick, I love cable ties,except most of the time when I want them, I can't find the right ones!

Hi Gary, yes, I do prefer to "nut out the problem", rather than just try this and that and using trial and error, and never really knowing what fixed it, or worse, not fixing it at all. I think it's a part of my 60s, 70s and 80s upbringing. It's sure a good feeling when you finally "hit the nail on the head", even when it is one of the simplest fixes.

Now I'm looking forward to driving down to Brizzy in a few weeks, as that is what started the saga. I was heading down there a few weeks back, and before leaving, dropped in on the mechanic to give him a listen to the noise..... and this is how it ended up! :crazy1:

Cheers,

Mike.
Seeing all that test gear, I'm getting aroused. something tells me maybe you would have been better doing this job yourself.

Depending on what was yours and what came with the motor I guess easy to transfer a fault too.

when I did my transplant I had the whole car so it was quite evident the damaged area (frontal) so i paid close attention for anything damaged.

Those vacuum lines to the solenoid and turbo were also damaged including the solenoid itself, then the intercooler hose was split as was the air pipe to the turbo, the swirl flap motor. Nearly missed the intercooler hose, small split underside only discovered when i was double checking fit and security .

A good tech always goes searching for evidence, sometimes you have to take a punt though.  :goodjob:
Title: Re: Noisy timing chain > "new" engine fitted > now can't rev over 2500 RPM
Post by: diesel1984 on November 15, 2017, 18:20:44
This is a hell of a way to find and clear a fault code. :Shocked: :goodjob:
Not a everyday procedure.
Why didn't you test vac lines first for a split or leak with vacuum tester?
You could also test VNT with cav pressure pump

(https://is.alicdn.com/img/pb/626/719/287/287719626_190.JPG)

Very nice that you sorted it in your own way.



 
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