i30 Owners Club

GOT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES? => DIESEL => Topic started by: eye30 on October 31, 2008, 22:01:32

Title: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: eye30 on October 31, 2008, 22:01:32
I've just read an article on another forum that YOU SHOULD NOT let a diesel engine idle to let it warm up on cold frosty mornings so you can use the warm air to clear the front window of frost.
They indicate that due to its construction and the way it works in general, diesel engines takes way longer to warm up compared to an similar petrol engine.  
They also say the diesel engines convert its energy into power rather than into heat, which happens in a petrol engine.

Does anyone have any views?
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Shambles on October 31, 2008, 22:16:59
Never really gave it much thought to be honest eye.

I let Fergie warm up this morning as it was frosty (3 mins or so), but it took ages to get any heat thru the dash and clear the windscreen.

Diesels work via high compression rather than combustion so I believe, so I expect it will take longer to warm up.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: TheBunyip on November 01, 2008, 00:12:21
This subject has also come up in Mazda3 forums. If I recall correctly the same recommendation was made there. DO NOT IDLE when first starting... Apparently in Germany it is against the law to do so. Diesels must drive off as soon as the engine is started. Although no mention was made of anyone in trouble with Officialdom so I cannot guess if German Diesel drivers who IDLE are prosecuted.

On an American web site I found a warning against Idling of Diesels on startup. Cummins Diesel had this to say..."If it's not severely cold out and you're using high quality, clean 15W-40 engine oil or 10W-30 below 70 deg. F, you may start the engine, let it idle for 10-15 seconds and slowly drive away (at modest power levels) with no ill effects."

So... has anyone ever tried one of those "Ceramic" plug in Demisters to clear the windscreen on cold mornings :?:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Shambles on November 01, 2008, 09:13:58
I'll tell you what - no way would I drive off after a few seconds while my windscreen was frozen up.  :shock:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: TheBunyip on November 01, 2008, 10:18:50
Hi Shambles,

Quote
I'll tell you what - no way would I drive off after a few seconds while my windscreen was frozen up. :?:  Or are these devices just toys  :roll: .http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ADVANCED-CERAMIC-CAR-HEATER-COOLER-WINDSCREEN-DEMISTER_W0QQitemZ220289311954QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220289311954&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

If not I too am back to continuing to IDLE until the screen thaws out.[/color]
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Shambles on November 01, 2008, 10:53:10
Quote from: "TheBunyip"
Does anyone know if something like  this would do the job. :roll: .http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ADVANCED-CERAMIC-CAR-HEATER-COOLER-WINDSCREEN-DEMISTER_W0QQitemZ220289311954QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220289311954&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Thanks for that - I just ordered one (from cn-ice.com - £19.99 delivered next day) I'll let you know what it's like
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Shambles on November 04, 2008, 16:38:01
Quote from: "TheBunyip"
Does anyone know if something like  this would do the job. :roll: .http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ADVANCED-CERAMIC-CAR-HEATER-COOLER-WINDSCREEN-DEMISTER_W0QQitemZ220289311954QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220289311954&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

If not I too am back to continuing to IDLE until the screen thaws out.

Just been out and put a 20A fuse in the power outlet (existing 15A fuse wouldn't be enough - 200W @ 12v = 16.7A)

I can officially confirm that this particular model of "demister" is a toy. And not a very good toy. Started the engine then switched it on. It has a OFF/FAN/HEAT button and one for FAST/SLOW.

I set it to FAST HEAT.

The motor runs too slowly to do general coverage of the windscreen. It would have to be moved around like a hairdryer. And it didn't get hot at all, just warm.

So, stay clear of this gadget.

I'll be keeping my eyes open for others to try.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Zhangster on April 25, 2009, 21:41:46
just wanted to tell u about the difference of petrol an diesel fuel.. as shambles said : Diesels work via high compression rather than combustion is one thing... but the most important thing about is :

if u have 1liter of fuel = 100% energy.

Petrol will convert 25% of the energy into power and rest is pure heat which make it heat up way faster than a diesel engine.

compared to the petrol engine.. diesel engine will convert around 40% or more ( cars like vw lupo)

which means less useless heat...

hope u get my point here :P

cheers :mrgreen:


Never really gave it much thought to be honest eye.

I let Fergie warm up this morning as it was frosty (3 mins or so), but it took ages to get any heat thru the dash and clear the windscreen.

Diesels work via high compression rather than combustion so I believe, so I expect it will take longer to warm up.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Dazzler on April 25, 2009, 22:32:27
Thanks dpo .. interesting info.. :razz:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: LuciferDarklord on April 26, 2009, 03:48:11
Because diesels have a high compression ratio, they have less surface area of head in the combustion chamber.  Generally DI diesels have a flat head, with a toroidal combustion chamber in the top of the piston.  This makes them very thermally efficient.  In the mid-90's Isuzu made an experimental diesel engine with ceramic inserts in the head, valves and piston crown.  It had no cooling system at all!
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 27, 2010, 22:22:54
if its illegal in some country's to let a diesel idle on cold start up,how on a truck/lorry would you be able to stop with no or little air in the braking system,be able to see out of the windows on your car or truck.this seems a little dangerous to me.but i suppose if the engine was fitted with a block heater the engine would allready be warmed up enough to clear a frosty windscreen. but that still wont help you with the air brakes problem on a heavy vehicle.  :rolleyes: [sorry about posting in an old thread and going off topic a bit.]
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: MRH130 on June 27, 2010, 23:29:11
I'd let it idle for about 30 seconds and then drive off gently. You don't need to let it idle longer than that but you do want to make sure that the oil is circulating and reaching all the important bits before you put the motor under ANY stress. Don't give it a big squirt until it's properly warmed up.

The exhaust emissions will be worse when it's cold which would be why some countries ban idling cold diesels.

But driving away immediately after starting the motor is bad for the engine and I certainly wouldn't do it (unless I had to by law, and if I did I would drive away at idle).
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: clackerz on June 28, 2010, 00:42:48
I never realised this for diesels.
I always let the engine sit - usually around for 1min.  In the Territory it was enough to get the engine warrm.

I noticed that the diesel takes alot longer.

Today I only let it idle for around 20 secs and then drove off carefully until the engine is warm.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Pip on June 28, 2010, 09:11:30
Applying only my own simple logic to this question; I reckon it would take so long for our little (and very efficient) diesel to generate any useful heat running at a dead idle to make it not worthwhile and perhaps detrimental.

Apart from demisting, which is a different problem, the idea is to get the temperature up as quickly as possible while at the same time not running the engine too hard while still cold. It's obvious these two requirements are somewhat opposed and a happy medium needs to be taken.

My approach is to let it idle only for the few seconds it takes to adjust the seat belt and check mirrors and the road behind before backing out then driving off very moderately yet with sufficient pedal to do enough work to generate some heat. Incidently, I also let it run for these 10 or 15 seconds with the clutch out to get the gearbox bits coated as well. Unless there is something wrong with the engine (or the oil) I also believe that this is sufficient time to get oil to all the right places.

Consider this hypothetical: If you lived halfway up a long hill and could choose to start your trip going either way would you choose to drive up the hill or down? Perhaps counter-intuitively, I'd drive up the hill to get some heat into the engine and oil as soon as possible. If you drive down, you will burn less fuel and if the hill is steep you might even have to go down with a closed "throttle" so that the engine just spins around cold not getting warm at all apart from a little friction. 

Adapt this scenario to your daily startup is my suggestion. Of course if you can't drive off because you can't see then make your own arrangements. :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: agentr31 on June 28, 2010, 09:24:52
ask yourself, this do you get out of bed and the first thing you do is start running around, jumping, yelling, playing, hop-scotch and weights??

no that would be silly you havent "warmed up" and even when you do go and do these activities you "warm up" dont you? or you can cause damage

same goes for an engine...

i usually have a smoke and let the car warm up while im smoking...
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 28, 2010, 09:25:34
wont putting the aircon in the demist position on screen flat out ,defrost  the front screen,that issue is solved.  :idea:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: agentr31 on June 28, 2010, 09:28:24
not if you have frost on the outside!!! :P
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 28, 2010, 09:30:39
so that put a stop to my idea.  :lol:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: agentr31 on June 28, 2010, 09:34:33
:o
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Pip on June 28, 2010, 09:42:35
ask yourself, this do you get out of bed and the first thing you do is start running around, jumping, yelling, playing, hop-scotch and weights??

no that would be silly you havent "warmed up" and even when you do go and do these activities you "warm up" dont you? or you can cause damage

same goes for an engine...

i usually have a smoke and let the car warm up while im smoking...

I don't think anyone is suggesting a warmup is unnecessary. What is being discussed is what method might be best. :)
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 28, 2010, 09:59:37
in eye30's original post it says, he only read the suggestion that you shouldn't warm up a diesel engine at all on a Mazda forum.I'm no engine expert but I've spent a lot of time working around these engines and i have noticed that most if not all truck drivers start the engine from cold and leave it running while loading it.i used to do it myself as a driver years ago.the fire pumps i make at work are tested prior to leaving the factory as a quality assurance thing.we start them up on the maximum rpm and run them flat out for an hour non stop,they don't get a chance to idle.  :cool:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Dazzler on June 28, 2010, 10:07:49
I'm with Pip and others who just slip on their belt and drive off carefully the engine warms up much more quickly than if you just idle on the spot and you are using your fuel to go somewhere.. :D
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 28, 2010, 10:21:30
 :lol: :razz: :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Lorian on June 28, 2010, 11:58:11
I'm with Pip and others who just slip on their belt and drive off carefully the engine warms up much more quickly than if you just idle on the spot and you are using your fuel to go somewhere.. :D

It's not very practical for folk who are parked in the open in freezing weather though. Sometimes you just have to burn that fuel for heat.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Dazzler on June 28, 2010, 12:10:47
I'm with Pip and others who just slip on their belt and drive off carefully the engine warms up much more quickly than if you just idle on the spot and you are using your fuel to go somewhere.. :D

It's not very practical for folk who are parked in the open in freezing weather though. Sometimes you just have to burn that fuel for heat.

True, I am very much enjoying a large garage with remote door after around 12 years of parking out in the open (frost and all)

I used to remove the frost from my windows (carefully) with a bucket of luke warm water.. then drive off carefully... :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: clackerz on June 28, 2010, 12:33:30
I'm with Pip and others who just slip on their belt and drive off carefully the engine warms up much more quickly than if you just idle on the spot and you are using your fuel to go somewhere.. :D

It's not very practical for folk who are parked in the open in freezing weather though. Sometimes you just have to burn that fuel for heat.

Use The Force Luke........
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Lorian on June 28, 2010, 12:38:35
Use The Force Luke........

Burning midich-lorians will not help in this instance  :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Pip on June 28, 2010, 15:27:19
It's not very practical for folk who are parked in the open in freezing weather though. Sometimes you just have to burn that fuel for heat.

Indeed, if you have no alternative other than to use your poor diesel engine to defrost your car then so be it.  Just accept that so doing might not be extending its life and in any case earlier driving off rather than later is probably better.

In most states of Oz we are so lucky that sub-freezing temperatures are not as common as in other parts of the world (except for Canberra!) such that the secondary problem here discussed of warming the car itself is almost moot.

An analogy might be using those high wattage incandescent lights (petrol) in the bathroom to warm you because they make more heat than light, compared to using fluorescent lights (more light than heat). You can run the fluorescent light forever but you wont get warm. I've often gotten to my destination before my feel have thawed... the heater is quite ineffective for the first 10ks or so.

I really don't know why it became popular to idle diesels to warm them but I'd guess that due to the relatively low-tech, truly agricultural engineering in their early implementations that they quite possibly were barely drivable before they were significantly warmed.

Lakes has driven a few trucks if I recall. If he's about he might offer some historical insight.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: sgreeno on June 28, 2010, 22:28:11
indeed, in the UK, most of us in winter have no chance but to leave the car warm up. yeah, there are ice scrapers and de-icing sprays etc, but the mist on the inside of the wondow takes a good few minutes to clear to be able to drive safely!
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: whitbomb07 on June 29, 2010, 01:40:17
My car is parked out on the street and quite often I'm heading off to work before sunrise.

Temps are normally low single digit, Lots of water/sometimes frost on the outside, mist on the inside.

I have a hand towel to deal with mist on the inside, water on the window and side mirror. Then I give the widnscreen a squirt and wipe with the windscreen wipers, start up and go staright away.

I use my Scangauge as a guide, unfortunately it only shows water temp and not oil temp and pressure. I don't even consider driving it hard until the water temp is in the normal operating range (84-87C)

Until it's hot I granny it very carefully and gently, short shifting not going much over 2000rpm.

I've heard that leaving modern Diesels idling can cause glazing on the cylinders, but I have no proof of it, just something that I heard.

Interestingly I just read that the new European 2011 Ford Mondeo will make use of a system the closes up the engine bay to assist the engine in warming up quicker, it then opens up once the engine is warm.

Can anyone confirm that the heating system is still based on using water from the radiator? I know cars of yesteryear used this to provide heating, but not if modern cars do still.

Regards

Daniel
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 29, 2010, 02:05:30
its possible they may have some kind of louvre set up in front of the radiator that only opens when the engine temp reaches normal running temp.  :idea: :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: MRH130 on June 29, 2010, 23:11:11
yes, the heater is still just piped in to the engine cooling system - it's a good idea, except for the delay you sometimes get when you're waiting for heat. I seem to vaguely recall that there was a seperate element in the HVAC system for the i30 CRDi because they were concerned that it took too long for heat to come through? My brain's swiss cheese tho so I may have dreamed that...  :lol:

The blind in the engine bay sends a shiver down my spine - does anyone else remember when Allan Moffat had the brilliant idea of getting his RX-7's engine nice and warm on the Bathurst warm-up lap by blocking off all the cooling ducts but he ended up cooking the motor and missing the race?

I certainly wouldn't want to rely on any automated system that closed the air out of the engine bay to work for 20 years. Especially given so many cars don't even have temperature gauges anymore - you wouldn't even know it was malfunctioning until the head gasket decided to join you in the front seat...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Lorian on June 29, 2010, 23:35:12
When I was a kid most folk drove round town with bits of cardboard box in the grill during winter. I can recall my dads being their for weeks on end (him only doing short trips).

I presume the car had a thermostat anyway, but who knows, I can just remeber the cardboard, not the make and model.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: agentr31 on June 30, 2010, 09:56:56
LOL the cardboard reminds me of a 120y my dad had... someone removed the thermostat and he just put cardboard in it because he was too cheap to spend the $10 on a thermostat HAHAHA
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Brew69 on June 30, 2010, 21:25:43
Having read this thread, it has me bewildered. One of the things i love most about the i30 is how quickly my heater works. I don't do any warm ups in the mornings (we leave for work at 4.45am). I just get in and drive. I set the climate control in winter to 28 deg celsius. I drop my wife at the train station 5 kms away which is all 60 k/ph and before we get to the station we have to reduce the heat to 23 as it gets too hot in the car. I know we don't have savage winter here, but the mornings are usually about 3 - 6 deg.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: clackerz on June 30, 2010, 21:44:36
^^ You must have a petrol version?
It was mentioned earlier that the petrol engines warm up faster than a diesel engine.

Over the past few days I've tried both (warm-up or drive-away).
The drive away def warms the engine quicker than sitting there idle.
So the only way to combat the frosty windows before I drive away is to splash cold water over the car.
Also if it is frozen then it really isn't a good idea for the windscreen to have a blast of hot air (even water for that matter) otherwise you'll be calling o,o,o,o'brien.

Our Territory is the same Brew69 it warms up so quick it's not funny.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 30, 2010, 22:07:21
brew69 is in SA and hes car is a crdi.  :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Dazzler on June 30, 2010, 22:16:59
brew69 is in SA and hes car is a crdi.  :wink:

Yep it says so under his avatar... :D

If you press the windscreen defrost button on the models with climate control (SR & SLX) it does defrost the windsreen quicker (and sometimes it does actually come on by itself) but because it needs the aircon on as well the wife doesn't like the cool air that comes with it  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on June 30, 2010, 22:27:11
brew69 is in SA and hes car is a crdi.  :wink:
and it cant be a 1.6 petrol as hes been a member for a while now and a 1.6 petrol has only just been released here.  :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: whitbomb07 on July 01, 2010, 02:02:50
brew69 is in SA and hes car is a crdi.  :wink:

Yep it says so under his avatar... :D

If you press the windscreen defrost button on the models with climate control (SR & SLX) it does defrost the windsreen quicker (and sometimes it does actually come on by itself) but because it needs the aircon on as well the wife doesn't like the cool air that comes with it  :rolleyes:

Dazz

You do know that you can select windscreen demister and then deselect air con?

Regards

Daniel
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: saunaman on July 01, 2010, 06:26:21

Looks like winter has arrived to southern hemisphere... Sounds like you could benefit from some of the winter gear we use here in Finland, especially the Defa engine and interior pre-heaters. That would solve your issues with frost and cold start-ups.

Take a look at this thread for pics and more info:
https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,5320.0.html
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: clackerz on July 01, 2010, 06:55:48
brew69 is in SA and hes car is a crdi.  :wink:
and it cant be a 1.6 petrol as hes been a member for a while now and a 1.6 petrol has only just been released here.  :wink:

OK OK OK I see your point.  :-[

Sorry for the interruption, we'll now resume to normal transmission.....

Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on July 01, 2010, 07:49:38
sorry mate,i was just saying.   :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: clackerz on July 01, 2010, 08:21:28
sorry mate,i was just saying.   :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink:

Nah that's  8) I'm just going along with it......

Anyway that device in saunamans link looks like it would warm the car up quick smart.
Although we do get cold winters, I dare say it wouldn't be anything like what others get.
Also with an element glowing like that I'd have some concerns over risk of fire there too.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: agentr31 on July 01, 2010, 09:31:21
lol no winter in australia is worth the winter gear you get in finland!!
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on July 01, 2010, 10:31:30
and us mebournians think it gets cold,I'm glad i don't have to go through a snowy winter.   :eek:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Brew69 on July 01, 2010, 11:12:03
and us mebournians think it gets cold,I'm glad i don't have to go through a snowy winter.   :eek:
We have been giving you good competition for winter this year. Regular 12 and 13 deg maximums. It''s almost time for me to move to Qld lol.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: agentr31 on July 01, 2010, 13:05:20
*agent wonders if there is anyone left in melbourne* mexicans... bloody mexicans taking over qld and bringing there crazy time shift ideas of daylight savings here *shakes fist* LOL
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: clackerz on July 01, 2010, 13:36:24
^^^......You are getting sleeeepy......You are getting verrrry sleeeeeepyyyy......
When I click my fingers you'll wake up and you'll go and change your clock........you'll then realise how much you looooooove daylight saaaaavinnnngs........

<snap>

Did that work? :P

Bloody left wing qlders and their resistance...... :D
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: 2i30s on July 01, 2010, 22:18:53
my curtains will fade.!   :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: saunaman on July 02, 2010, 06:39:08
lol no winter in australia is worth the winter gear you get in finland!!

Well, the interor heater was just 59€ at the accessories store...  :wink:

Btw, the lowest temperature in June (Finnish mid-summer) was -4°C. However, the forecast for the weekend promises 27-29°C maximums.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: agentr31 on July 02, 2010, 07:47:11
my curtains will fade.!   :lol: :lol: :lol:

LOL only the mentally chalanged think that *rolls eyes* there is still the same amount of daylight, you can never change that...

 i just think its a waste of time... honestly what the point of moving the clock forward 1 hour?
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: LuciferDarklord on July 03, 2010, 15:28:08
my curtains will fade.!   :lol: :lol: :lol:

LOL only the mentally chalanged think that *rolls eyes* there is still the same amount of daylight, you can never change that...

 i just think its a waste of time... honestly what the point of moving the clock forward 1 hour?

We already have water restrictions and sprinkler bans, the last thing we need over here is another hour of sunlight to dry things even more!  :lol:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: bobbyd on December 18, 2012, 10:57:51
Ask any heavy truck owner if he drives off without warming up ?  the answer is no- great way to stress your turbo etc before it evenly warms up. Guy at work had to replace his turbo in his prado after only 60k due to not warming and cooling it.

I live in the hills and always warm up before loading the engine up my steep road, otherwise its a rude shock to all components being loaded up and heatd up rapidly and unevenly.  Less important if your only going to get up to 60km/h with a gently right foot. 

Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: peon2t on December 18, 2012, 20:52:30
I can only repeat what I said in another thread ( https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=18578 (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=18578) ) :

According to an engine technician I know, the experts agree that it doesn't make any sense if you try to warm up an engine (especially a diesel) in idle before driving off.
They say that you do more bad than good to your engine if you do so and that it's better to warm the engine while driving in not too high revs.
(Actually with a diesel engine you don't need to rev high even on the highway - except if you are in Germany and plan to drive 200 km/h)

Maybe it's different with heavy truck engines.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Asterix on December 18, 2012, 21:05:19
I can only repeat what I said in another thread ( https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=18578 (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=18578) ) :

According to an engine technician I know, the experts agree that it doesn't make any sense if you try to warm up an engine (especially a diesel) in idle before driving off.
They say that you do more bad than good to your engine if you do so and that it's better to warm the engine while driving in not too high revs.
(Actually with a diesel engine you don't need to rev high even on the highway - except if you are in Germany and plan to drive 200 km/h)

Maybe it's different with heavy truck engines.

That's also what I've learned.

I only idle it when I need to defog the windows in winter.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Doggie 1 on December 19, 2012, 00:01:37
I was always to drive away slowly until normal operating temp is reached, but don't idle.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: bobbyd on January 04, 2013, 23:29:12
And the damage caused by idling is ????????   
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 05, 2013, 00:01:44
I was always taught that it's better to drive away gently to get the engine up to proper operating temperature quickly, rather than let it idle and warm up slowly.
It's just something I've always done with petrol and diesel engines.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Phil №❶ on January 05, 2013, 00:07:09
I was always taught that it's better to drive away gently to get the engine up to proper operating temperature quickly, rather than let it idle and warm up slowly.
It's just something I've always done with petrol and diesel engines.

Me 2

Picture yourself outside on a frosty morning. (never mind how or why you're there.) :mrgreen:

To warm up most effectively, would you rather stand still, or gently move about, brisk walking etc. It's the same for a motor. Our cars are 1300kg, so to get the car rolling requires gentle engine effort, which in turn, provides more internal engine heat due to imposed load. Natuarally, the screen needs to be clear and safe.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 05, 2013, 00:11:53
Nice description.  :goodjob:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: rustynutz on January 05, 2013, 00:17:51
I thought it was more a case of...you're wasting fuel letting it sit there warming up, so why not let it warm up while actually going somewhere?  :undecided:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: komaterpillar on January 05, 2013, 07:14:14
here's my take on things

i have done and will continue to idle EVERY engine i start to warm it up, heres why

does not apply so much to a petrol but more so diesel. almost all diesels have forged pistons with cast-iron liners. these forged slugs expand quicker than the cast bore when heated so you run the risk of a piston crown grabbing a liner and scoring it. this problem is exacerbated by the fact that in a direct injection engine (ie.- a diesel) the injector is spraying directly in the pre-combustion chamber in the piston crown therefore most of the heat from the power-stroke is absorbed by the piston and not the bore wich makes our problem from earlier with the forged slugs and cast liners worse. i have personally seen/rebuilt 14 2.8d toyota hilux engines because they have not been warmed up before someone gives them the berries. they pick up on bores 1 and 2 and then they get the death rattles (piston slap) and ever increasing blow by as the rings flog themselves and the ring lands into oblivion.

on the other hand if you let the engine idle for 1 to 1  and a half minutes before driving away this gives a bit of time for heat transfer between pistons to bores and lets everything expand evenly or closer to even.

the arguement about wasting fuel is a bit odd, do you really think your i30 will chew that much fuel at idle for 1 minute that it is gonna blow your budget? i get a bit of flack for letting my car idle down for a minute on the turbo timer, my arguement is 10 cents of diesel now is cheaper than a $800 turbo in 6 months. same goes for idlling to warm up, 10 to 15 cents worth of diesel vs $2.5 - $3k (probably more) engine?
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Phil №❶ on January 05, 2013, 07:23:40
OK, what you say makes a lot of sense and it is information that would not be commonly known. I still have the petrol engine mentality I suppose and it is information like this that can help in the future. I wonder though, why is it not mentioned in the handbook and especially where temperatures are commonly below 0 Deg  C.  :undecided:

Thanks for sharing. :goodjob2:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: komaterpillar on January 05, 2013, 07:26:03
OK, what you say makes a lot of sense and it is information that would not be commonly known. I still have the petrol engine mentality I suppose and it is information like this that can help in the future. I wonder though, why is it not mentioned in the handbook and especially where temperatures are commonly below 0 Deg  C.  :undecided:

Thanks for sharing. :goodjob2:

dunno, maybe to keep it simple and stop confusion? or maybe the emmisions nazi's frown upon a manufacturer advising an owner to burn fuel for no apparent reason?
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 05, 2013, 07:31:17
Yes, this info is all new to me. I was thinking about it though and while I said (and certainly intend to) that I drive straight off, in reality I guess there is probably more like 30-60 seconds before I do.
I was meaning I don't sit and idle the engine for five minutes to warm it up.
I generally start the engine, then connect my phone to the charger, put my other keys in the storage place, put my seatbelt on, etc etc and then go.
But it wouldn't be one to one a half minutes. More like half to one minute.
But I always idle down after a run as in my last car.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: rustynutz on January 05, 2013, 10:31:22
the arguement about wasting fuel is a bit odd, do you really think your i30 will chew that much fuel at idle for 1 minute that it is gonna blow your budget?

I'm just the messenger, Kom.... :whistler:

I was just repeating one of the arguments I'd heard for not warming an engine up before driving off.

Me, I'm quite happy to let the engine warm up a bit whether it's diesel or petrol......
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Dazzler on January 05, 2013, 10:36:46
I'm still more in line with DB08 with my cars including the CRDi .. Start her up get comfy and get the belt on check the mirrors etc.. then slowly drive away (bit like our Women eh Dave :snigger:)
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 05, 2013, 10:38:42
I'm still more in line with DB08 with my cars including the CRDi .. Start her up get comfy and get the belt on check the mirrors etc.. then slowly drive away (bit like our Women eh Dave :snigger:)

 ;) ;)  :)
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Aussie Keith on January 07, 2013, 10:47:33
Getting back to the question of demisting, I'm confused. Having lived for some years in a country where there is ice and snow for half the year we solved the issue on the outside with one of these:

(http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/CanadianTire/0304424_1?$medium$&defaultImage=image_na_EN)

The cost for this hi tech device, $1.99 from Canadian Tyre, about $200-00 if it were available here probably. I have one in the shed and use it for chasing spiders.

The windscreen washers had some sort of deicing component to them as well. To demist the inside we just turned the AC on. Since it was anywhere around -20 or less in the depths of winter there's no issue with "cold" air because your wearing clothing appropriate for the weather. Eventually the car heats up because you know, its cold outside.

Given that experience I'm pretty sure that if you turn the demister on with the AC the screen will clear in seconds, probably while you warm up the engine. ;) In the models with climate control there's even a button that takes care of it.

As to how long to idle the car to avoid catastrophic engine failure, the manual states the engine needs only 10-15 seconds idle before driving off with a slightly longer idle period in very cold conditions. 

The top pic shows the stick in action, the bottom one is about a minute out of my driveway with the demister and AC on and that's all. Engine wouldn't be even slightly warmed up by then. Not the current chariot just to be clear but just making the point that its probably prudent to idle the car for as long as it takes to have visibility and strap yourself in, maybe 30 seconds to a minute max.

(http://gallery.heinrich.id.au/gallery2/d/8771-2/SamandCar.jpg)

(http://gallery.heinrich.id.au/gallery2/d/8759-2/Snowstorm.jpg)
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Aussie Keith on January 08, 2013, 11:53:43
The little guy with the stick in the picture above is today the driver of a black GD i30 diesel so this pic was taken some time ago.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2013, 11:56:20
The little guy with the stick in the picture above is today the driver of a black GD i30 diesel so this pic was taken some time ago.

Way too young to drive, even if it was taken last year.  :)
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: bobbyd on January 14, 2013, 02:35:05
Quote

Me 2

Picture yourself outside on a frosty morning. (never mind how or why you're there.) :mrgreen:

To warm up most effectively, would you rather stand still, or gently move about, brisk walking etc. It's the same for a motor. Our cars are 1300kg, so to get the car rolling requires gentle engine effort, which in turn, provides more internal engine heat due to imposed load. Natuarally, the screen needs to be clear and safe.

That is the worst analogy i have heard....sorry.   Think of this- a cold engine warming up a bit slower and more evenly with such little load on its bearings, pistons, cylinders etc- versus, a cold engine, with a load put on it and increased combustion temps causing uneven warming and therefore uneven expansion of parts (yes they are metal and will expand significantly and also varied depending on the alloy and how much heat its receiving.   Then think of your turbo, its impellers/housing and seals etc when they are cold and then get given a heap of hot exhaust gas.........I know which i'd prefer if i was an engine.........
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Phil №❶ on January 14, 2013, 07:49:16
You do your thing, I'll do mine. :groan:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 16, 2013, 02:43:45
Quote

Me 2

Picture yourself outside on a frosty morning. (never mind how or why you're there.) :mrgreen:

To warm up most effectively, would you rather stand still, or gently move about, brisk walking etc. It's the same for a motor. Our cars are 1300kg, so to get the car rolling requires gentle engine effort, which in turn, provides more internal engine heat due to imposed load. Natuarally, the screen needs to be clear and safe.

That is the worst analogy i have heard....sorry.   Think of this- a cold engine warming up a bit slower and more evenly with such little load on its bearings, pistons, cylinders etc- versus, a cold engine, with a load put on it and increased combustion temps causing uneven warming and therefore uneven expansion of parts (yes they are metal and will expand significantly and also varied depending on the alloy and how much heat its receiving.   Then think of your turbo, its impellers/housing and seals etc when they are cold and then get given a heap of hot exhaust gas.........I know which i'd prefer if i was an engine.........

I disagree with your disagreement, these devices are ruggedly constructed. Here is why your theory is incorrect.

Airbus A320 Cold start -28C (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Neq8AOgcOVk#ws)


Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: rustynutz on April 16, 2013, 04:53:59
Okay, I'm confused.... :undecided:

What are you trying to prove or disprove here, Phil?
Sorry, brain's a bit foggy today, don't think I gave it a chance to warm up....  :head_butt:
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 16, 2013, 05:14:00
I'm not an advocate for idling motors unnecessarily, I prefer to drive at low speed through back streets, after a 30 second warm up to check gauges and ensure a clear path, my analogy of gentle work was rejected, so when I came across this vid I thought it worth posting.

The turbine blades go from -28 Deg C to + 700 Deg C in a very short space of time and they still manage to survive. A turbo should also be able to be warmed gently, with no adverse effects IMO.
Title: Re: Diesel engine idle on cold frosty mornings - yes or no
Post by: rustynutz on April 16, 2013, 05:31:52
Okay....I think :eek:

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