i30 Owners Club

THE GARAGE (SERVICE, MAINTENANCE & REPAIR) => PETROL => Topic started by: robbo137 on November 15, 2019, 00:23:31

Title: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 15, 2019, 00:23:31
Hi all

Not sure if this is posted in the right place but happy to move if need be.

My i30 Nline 1.6T (petrol) is due for its first service soon (1500km) and I have decided to do an oil change. Happy to hear from people who think this is waste.

Oddly enough, the service using their oil is $159, but the service using my own oil is $143. Firstly, is $159 decent for an interim service (oil+oil filter) change plus the little inspection they do at 1500km? It makes no sense to supply my own oil (which I was hoping to do) if the difference is only $16 + cost of own oil. There is only one other Hyundai Dealer in Canberra but I really don’t want to look into that as they were terrible when I visited during the buying process so I’d prefer to stick to the dealer I bought the car new from as they were quite good (service means a lot to me). For the actual first service 1yr/10k kms they minus $60 if I provide my own oil which is more like it.

Secondly, I’ve been doing a great deal of research regarding which oil would be best for this car. I’ve read most of the threads here and a bit elsewhere but it is just so confusing! The manual as well as a sticker on the engine says Hyundai Recommends Shell Ultra. But, the manual also states that for the 1.6T that ACEA A5/B5 is best (which Shell Ultra is not). The 5w30 (also rec in the manual) is C3, whereas the 5w40 is ACEA A3/B4, A3/B3. I’ve sent emails to both Shell and Hyundai to see what they suggest. The manual does say that when A5/B5 isn’t available in your country you can use A3/B4. Just odd they recommend an oil that doesn’t fit the ACEA rating that they also recommend. Has anyone got any updated experience or suggestion with this? In terms of API the manual doesn’t say a thing. The Shell Ultra 5w30 is API SN and the 5w40 is API SM/CF. I understand you can use C3 where ACEA A3/B4 is allowed – so the 5w30 does meet requirements but not preference, which is just odd.

Anyway, seems as the first service is only $16 less if I provide my own oil I might just stick with their oil which the service department informed me is Valvoline SynPower FE 5W-30. Seems to fit the ACEA A5/B5 in the manual but is API SL/CF which is ILSAC GF-3. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this oil? It looks like a decent oil from what I can see. I did read that Valvoline is not great for extended drain periods?

SAE 5W-30, API SL/CF, ACEA A5/B5, Ford WSS-M2C-913 C, B, A, Fiat 9.55535.G1

 :link: SynPower FE 5W-30 - Full Synthetic Engine Oil | Valvoline (https://www.valvoline.com/en-australia/our-products/engine-oil/synpower-synthetic-engine-oil-fe-5w-30)

Seems this Valvoline oil is used extensively by FORD. Hyundai service department said this is the oil the turbos get at Hyundai.

Would love to hear peoples thoughts on all of this.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Dazzler on November 15, 2019, 04:22:13
Crazy! Seeing as the 1500 service is normally just a free inspection I'd be asking how they can justify that charge if you supply own oil. I'd supply own filter too.

Why not get a friendly independent to do the oil change and document it in the book or kerp all the receipts for oil filter and labour
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 15, 2019, 06:01:11
I think it was $90 Dave paid to have oil changed at the first complimentary service via Car Giant, he used the Penrite 5W-30 A5B5 I suggested :)

A5B5 is a more modern Euro 6 spec low emissions oil which supersedes A1B1-A3B3-A3B4 in petrol and diesel engines.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 15, 2019, 06:12:17
Thanks guys! Yeah I know ridiculous price for an oil change and filter! To be honest if I’m not getting the inspection and oil done at the same place I’m not sure I would bother with the oil change. Is a 1500km oil drop the consensus around here? I wouldn’t have the time just before Xmas to do both unfortunately!

Yeah it’s odd the oil HY suggest isn’t actually A5B5. I did look at the Penrite oil actually but I’ve read mixed reviews about it - just like all oils I guess!

 I was also reading about how the i30 has a direct injection turbo, so LSPI may be a consideration in oil choice and to lookfor SN +... which the valvoline my service department is not (SL/CF). Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 15, 2019, 06:25:42
Is a 1500km oil drop the consensus around here?

Yeah it’s odd the oil HY suggest isn’t actually A5B5.
I personally like to replace oil at first inspection, the first 1500 is the break in period which is more critical imo...really comes down to how long you're wishing to keep your vehicle.

The first complimentary service doesn't include oil as this would cost the company, same reason they're not using A5B5 in their servicing as it all comes down to cost.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 15, 2019, 06:58:23
I’m in 2 minds about dropping the oil at 1500km mainly due to the cost of supplying my own oil I guess at the dealer I guess and I’m not sold on the Valvoline oil they use.

Would you saying given the LSPI that acquiring an API rating of SN would take preference over using A5/B5? For e.g. helix ultra is C3 but rated SN whereas the valvoline is A5/B5 but only rated SL.

From what I can interpret, A5 may be better for emissions and economy but C3 SN will be a bit better for the engine.. I could be wrong of course.

The saga continues  :crazy1:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 15, 2019, 07:40:31
Isn't the C3 more for vehicles with DPF  :undecided:

Edited

C3 is suitable for petrol as well I can see from a brief check up on the specs, as for the other spec codes I've no idea...I'd just use what the book states A5B5 and you'll know you are covered :goodjob2:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: tw2005 on November 15, 2019, 11:47:31
I’m in 2 minds about dropping the oil at 1500km mainly due to the cost of supplying my own oil I guess at the dealer I guess and I’m not sold on the Valvoline oil they use.

Would you saying given the LSPI that acquiring an API rating of SN would take preference over using A5/B5? For e.g. helix ultra is C3 but rated SN whereas the valvoline is A5/B5 but only rated SL.

From what I can interpret, A5 may be better for emissions and economy but C3 SN will be a bit better for the engine.. I could be wrong of course.

The saga continues  :crazy1:
Saga? Could be just making hard work of something fairly straight forward. Does the owners manual have this note in it? (yes, it does  :agoodjob:)

If the ACEA A5/B5 engine oil is not available in your country, you are able to use ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4.

Because Shell is having a special promo and it's 5W40 . Pureplus tech and used by Ferrari, gotta be good :mrgreen:

(https://www.repco.com.au/medias/A9558944.jpg?context=bWFzdGVyfGltYWdlc3wxNDk4MzF8aW1hZ2UvanBlZ3xzeXMtbWFzdGVyL2ltYWdlcy9oY2UvaDNjLzk0NDYwOTE4MTY5OTAvQTk1NTg5NDQuanBnfDA3OWI0OGVkMTlmMTY2YTlkMmFiMzRkZDVjY2Q4NmJhZmIzZjM2MGVhMTM1MTZjMzJlMzM2MmUxZDkzZTcyNzQ)
 

(https://i.ibb.co/8xTy74h/repco.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c8MWrXm)

And this is the order their lube selector gave options



(https://i.ibb.co/3W5WSSY/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y5m5ggB)

(https://i.ibb.co/wcQmM2t/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dmpYGHZ)


Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: tw2005 on November 15, 2019, 11:51:45
Here's your C3, I prefer Scott's image  :whistler: Same price

(https://www.repco.com.au/medias/A9660308.jpg?context=bWFzdGVyfGltYWdlc3wxNDkxMjR8aW1hZ2UvanBlZ3xzeXMtbWFzdGVyL2ltYWdlcy9oNDgvaDMxLzk0NDYwOTI5OTY2MzgvQTk2NjAzMDguanBnfDVlNWI5Njg2NzI1MzVkMzM4OWI2ZDA3YmVkNzQ3ZmViZTE5OTIyMjU2ZjhhMzg2Yjc1YmM2MzE4NTk0ZjhjMWM)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 15, 2019, 12:16:15
Yeah, i’ve seen both of those oils and had a look at their specs. I guess I was trying to understand why HY state helix is the preferred oil but neither of those oils are A5/B5 - and they also state that A5 is the preferred ACEA spec (with A3/B3 allowed if A5 isn’t available - which it is). Trying to get a sense of which recommendation people are following and which one holds more weight. Both my manual and the sticker on my engine say to use helix. Just didn’t make sense to me and wasn’t straight forward I guess.

I think I will just follow the A5/B5 spec @CraigB which would mean the service depts oil would fit nicely. It is odd they said that if A5 isn’t available you can use a3 - as they are 2 very completely different spec oils. I did provide HY with my VIN before and they are getting back to me so that will be interesting.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: tw2005 on November 15, 2019, 12:35:18
Yeah, i’ve seen both of those oils and had a look at their specs. I guess I was trying to understand why HY state helix is the preferred oil but neither of those oils are A5/B5 - and they also state that A5 is the preferred ACEA spec (with A3/B3 allowed if A5 isn’t available - which it is). Trying to get a sense of which recommendation people are following and which one holds more weight. Both my manual and the sticker on my engine say to use helix. Just didn’t make sense to me and wasn’t straight forward I guess.
all mine are diesels , gets rather interesting with DPFs and what you can and can't use. So many specs now, I'd be  confident if it says either are ok, then it's ok. Just because the manual has a Shell Helix logo I don't expect it means every dealer is pumping Shell either. The shell logo has been in there from the first FD and looking at some service records I have a dealer using Castrol Magnatec Prof 5W40 and another using Synpower which is Valvoline.  ( 2009 FD CRdi  up to 2016)

Being so new and under wty though, as much as I hate dealers, you could just let them do it.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: tw2005 on November 15, 2019, 13:07:57
Looks like Supercheap has some deals too,

HX8


(https://i.ibb.co/YZhsnkZ/super-cheap-HX8.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 15, 2019, 21:38:18
In general reading about all the different oil specs gets very interesting and complicated. It would be perfect to find a 5w30 A5/b5 SN+ oil but there doesn’t seem to be any in Aus. Shell seem to do a Helix Ultra Professional which is SN+ but they only sell it in bulk. It makes sense that dealers would buy whatever is available in bulk at the cheapest price- regardless of brand. Just odd they list a preferred oil (twice) which doesn’t even meet their preferred spec. I looked at all the service records on my last car but could find only find ‘used spec oil’ except for one which was done out of town as I was away which said ‘10w30 oil’.

I think I will just use their oil - if I do the 1500km service anyway.

This looks to fit the bill  :link: Mobil 1 5W-30 ? Mobil 1 (https://www.m1oils.com.au/product/mobil-1-5w-30/)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: tw2005 on November 15, 2019, 21:42:17
In general reading about all the different oil specs gets very interesting and complicated. It would be perfect to find a 5w30 A5/b5 SN+ oil but there doesn’t seem to be any in Aus. Shell seem to do a Helix Ultra Professional which is SN+ but they only sell it in bulk. It makes sense that dealers would buy whatever is available in bulk at the cheapest price- regardless of brand. Just odd they list a preferred oil (twice) which doesn’t even meet their preferred spec. I looked at all the service records on my last cat but could find only find ‘used spec oil’ except for one which was done out of town as I was away which said ‘10w30 oil’.

I think I will just use their oil - if I do the 1500km service anyway.

 ‘used spec oil’   :spitty: I have to laugh at that one.

I think I'll go do one of mine now with "My Spec Oil" :goodjob2:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on November 15, 2019, 22:28:08
To break it down to basics. The only difference between the ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 & the ACEA A5/B5 is just for fuel economy.
 :link: ACEA Engine Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org (https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php).    So both grades will be all good in relation to engine protection..

Each Hyundai dealer uses oil that they can buy in bulk the cheapest, but that will also be the correct grade for the engine that it is going in.
My dealer used Mobil Oil 5w-30.  But also if you look at Mobil's website, they also don't have a A5/B5 available here in Australia.

If your comfortable in doing your own oil change, then I would recommend that. As I do mine at the 5000k's inbetween the 10,000k service.
I have used both Penrite 5w-30 A5/B5 & Shell Ultra 5w-30  https://www.repco.com.au/en/oils-fluids/engine-oils-fluids/engine-oil/shell-helix-ultra-5w-30-collectors-edition-12-5-litre-300012437/p/A9660308 (https://www.repco.com.au/en/oils-fluids/engine-oils-fluids/engine-oil/shell-helix-ultra-5w-30-collectors-edition-12-5-litre-300012437/p/A9660308)
The Shell is one of the best oils that you can buy. In a passenger car environment.  C3 oils are good in a direct injection engine, due to the less oil fumes that get put back through the engine & oil building up on the back of the valves.

But in reality, any of these top line oils will do the job in day to day driving on the road.  Motorsport or track day driving, would be a different thing.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 15, 2019, 23:01:41
That’s what I was thinking Dazzler. I think A/B compared to C3 is also higher SAPs and can be slightly lower HTHS Viscosity as well.
Like you say, all high end oils would be pretty good, I guess some more than others would be more suitable for particular engine types. That’s interesting re the oil fumes and the valves.

I thought the Mobil was A5/B5? That link in my last post says that it meets or exceeds A5 requirements. Not sure if it’s been accredited though, which is another story. The Mobil 1 is also ILSAC GF-5 and provides LSPI protection as it is API SN+ (from what I can see).

I’ve never done an oil change on a car before, plenty of dirt bikes though. I don’t really have the space and would prefer to pay for such a new car (don’t trust myself).


A/B: Gasoline and Diesel Engine Oils – “High SAPS”

A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use at extended Drain Intervals in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & Diesel Engines designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPas. These Oils are unsuitable for use in certain Engines - consult vehicle-OEM’s owner’s manual/handbook in case of doubt.



C: Catalyst & GPF/DPF compatible Engine Oils for Gasoline & Diesel Engines – “Low SAPS”

C3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPas.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on November 16, 2019, 01:54:03
Not sure if the Mobil 5w-30 is a A5/B5 oil..   It doesn't state it on their website. Actually says A1/B1  http://www.mobil1.com.au/products/product_5W30.aspx (http://www.mobil1.com.au/products/product_5W30.aspx)
But that also depends on if that is the one my dealer uses. As Mobil have another 5w/30 oil.
http://www.mobil1.com.au/products/product_esp_5w30.aspx (http://www.mobil1.com.au/products/product_esp_5w30.aspx)    All that is listed on my invoice is Mobil 1 5w/30

All good on not wanting to do an oil change..  Most people don't wish to do that on a new car..

The way I see it. Any top line oil meeting the required specs will be OK for a daily driven car on the streets.
Whether it is from Mobil, Shell, Valvoline, Penrite, Castrol, etc.  You pay a bit more for them. But in the long run are worth the extra paid.
Of course as I mentioned before. If your planning on doing track work. Then that is a different story...
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 16, 2019, 02:17:40
Yeah it’s hard to say with the Mobil 1 if it’s A5. It just seems to say below approvals and specs - see attached pic. I think this mix might be quite new so hard to say if it was was used in yours. At least you had yours listed on the invoice I just ‘spec oil’ and for one service I had the SAE.

Definitely won’t track but will give it some boot here and there and happy to spend a bit extra on the best available oil for the engine. I agree, I think any of the big names will do the job more than fine. I know people who don’t even service their cars and they still seem to kick on.. for how long who knows?

I think I’m happy with my service dept using the valvoline A5 for a 1500km change and then I’ll look around again closer to the 10k service I guess. If the oil is still honey golden at the 1500km service would you still change?


(https://i.ibb.co/CHck2Lf/99-E0-EACE-0-FD4-44-D3-9689-400269-C8-B91-B.png) (https://ibb.co/KrPMwnJ)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on November 16, 2019, 04:38:19
In the older day.. Doing a oil & filter change at 1000-1500ks was to catch anything due to it being a new engine.
I'm not sure if that is relevant anymore..  But it wouldn't hurt at all.  Also a dealer wouldn't use incorrect oil for the fact of keeping Hyundai's warranty intact.  I would be more than happy with the Valvoline product.

But just as a little side note..   On an American forum. Someone posted that Hyundai USA putout a service bulletin for the change from 5w-30 to 5w-40.
Which I found interesting as Hyundai USA gets a 10yrs 100,000 miles powertrain warranty. Compared to our 5yrs, unlimited. Or KIA with same engine 7yrs.

I did ask Hyundai Australia. But they are still recommending the 5w-30.  I also think it depends on how long you are going to keep the car for.
If it's only going to be in the warranty period. Then using the dealer supplied oil of the brand they use will be ok. As any problems should be covered by warranty.  As long as the servicing is all kept up to date & on time. Which will also help when it come to selling..

If your planning on keeping the car for say up to 10yrs or more.. Then you could be more picky with what you put in.
As an problems or repairs that happen after the warranty has gone, will all come out of your pocket. Which on a high tech modern car. Would not be cheap.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 16, 2019, 05:26:52
Yeah I was reading that as well with the Older engines and catching the debris. I’ve read that there should be minimal in newer cars and that process is already done at factory.. and anything else before your 10k will be captured by the filter. Odd that out of all the SRs and Ns in Canberra my dealer said only one guy did an oil change at 1500 and also provides his own oil and that he owns an N. Out of all the posts I’ve read it’s a bit devisive the old do you change your oil at 1500km or not question. Some say it won’t hurt but is a waste in modern engines, others say it’s good insurance. I’m sure there are plenty of cars getting around that followed OEM intervals with 200k km+. My last 2014 i30 1.8L was serviced every 15k had 120k when I traded it and no issues ever and my 1999 Hyundai lantra was also serviced once a year and that thing clocked 300K + no issues to the engine at all and I flogged that thing every single day for 7 years. The rest of the car fell apart though. Some say with our modern cars the engines will outlast all the other components (electrics, trans etc) so save your cash and put it into more frequent maintenance of those parts. Who knows?!

Maybe I’ll check the oil and if looks good I’ll keep it in and maybe I could do the change at 5000km or something instead. I think I’ll just keep to the 10, 000 usual intervals though after that.

That is very interesting. From what I’m reading 5w30 is superior as it’s a bit thinner and will be better for cold starts but if you drive hard and track 5w40 can be a bit better if the car is running hot often. I managed to snag the 7yr warranty deal which I’m pretty happy with. Not sure how long I’ll hang onto it just yet but I’d say at least 5-7yrs.

I might ask Hyundai as well as I’m still waiting to hear back from their tech team regarding my oil questions.

I get pleasure from knowing I’ve used the best or near the best oil in it.. which is sad  :crazy1: I probably won’t be so fussy once the car is a bit older.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 18, 2019, 22:37:56
Hyundai’s response for those interested:

Upon further confirmation with the Technical Department, we have been advised the below,

The oil grade is critical to the engine and Hyundai Motor Company (HMC) strongly advice against using a grade that does not meet the manufactures recommendations. HMC stipulate to use only ACEA A5/B5 ore above.

“ACEA A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline and direct injection diesel engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3.

ACEA A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in high performance gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a High temperature / High shear rate (HTHS) viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s”

HMC promote Shell oils, and we (Hyundai Motor Company Australia) promote Caltex oils.

Shell Helix 5/30 oil meets ACEA A5/B5 (Shell Ultra does not meet ACEA A5/B5)

With regard to the first 1 Month/1500k service, the oil and filter are inspected not replaced.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on November 19, 2019, 08:02:30
Thanks for that info..

Some very interesting information..  Specially about that Hyundai Australia promote Caltex. Even thought the sticker on the airbox says Shell Oil.

Interesting on the Shell websites oil selector..  They recommend Shell Ultra. At 5w/40 grade?  Looking at the Shell website. I can't see any of their oils that are A5/B5.
The HX7 ECT is ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4. While the rest of the range are ACEA C3 Including the Shell Ultra ECT C3 that both Supercheap & Repco stock..
So I would be interested in what Hyundai Australia's recommendation of which Shell Helix product that is A5/B5.

(https://i.ibb.co/924YBBT/Shell-Lube.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rMpyqq6)

Next up we have the Caltex website's oil selector..  The one that comes up is Caltex Super GT-F 5w/30 which is a A5/B5 oil..
But the next one recommend is the Caltex Havoline ProDS Fully Synthetic C3 5W30.  But interesting is a ACEA C3 oil. Which is the same rating as the Shell Ultra that they don't recommend.

(https://i.ibb.co/JmGV1zh/Caltex-lube.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ydZt983)

So I think you can see why people that care about what Oil goes in their car can get quite confused...

I know my dealer used Mobil Oil, as it is printed on my receipt.   But again on Mobil's Australian website there are to 5w/30 oils.
Mobil 1 5w/30 Newer Vehicle Formula with ACEA of A1/B1.  Mobil 1 5w/30 ESP Formula with a ACEA of C2, C3
On looking there is a Mobil Super 3000 X1 Formula FE 5W-30 that is A5/B5 rated.
But going back to the Hyundai USA Oil recommend change to 5w/40.  I found the Service bulletin.  Even though it's dated for models up to 2017, as it came out in 2016.
The cars that it refers to for our interest are the Elantra Sport & Veloster Turbo.  As they use the same 1.6lt turbo that are in our SR's & N-Line's
The last paragraph on that is a very interesting one..

(https://i.ibb.co/BGrQrLQ/45763787-10161281323335790-4185743120861757440-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DY8v84v)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 19, 2019, 21:59:55
It definitely seems to confuse things even further. Surely they could either not put a shell sticker on the airbox or put a different sticker on in accordance to which country it was being shipped to and that countries partnership or oil preference?

I'm not even sure what they recommend to be honest. Like you say, there is no A5/B5 Shell Helix oil readily available to consumers in this country. I did manage to find one that is A5/B5 but it isn't available for purchase anywhere -  :link: Shell Helix Ultra Professional AF 5W-30 | Shell Australia (https://www.shell.com.au/motorists/oils-lubricants/helix-for-cars/helix-fully-synthetic/shell-helix-ultra-professional-af-5w-30.html)    I don't know if this is the oil they are referring to or not, as it cannot be purchased anywhere anyway.

Why would a company (Shell) partnered with Hyundai Globally not even have the appropriate oil in the country or suggest an appropriate oil on their lube match? The lube match throws out A3/B3, A3/B4 and C3 oils?!

Also, i can't find any Caltex oils for purchase at any of the large auto stores and ran into the same issues as you with their lube match.

Exactly, very easy to get confused with so many conflicting messages if you actually do a bit research and care about which oil goes into your car. I might look into that Mobil Super 3000 X1 Formula FE 5W-30. I think the oil my service dept uses (Valvoline FE Synpower A5/B5) is a decent oil.

Thanks for sharing the bulletin. It makes no sense at all? I could understand if it were for older engines as sometimes 5w40 is good for older engines that are burning oil as it is a little thicker. Very interesting last para... very direct statement considering all the info out there concerning this issue is very indirect. Feels like the committees of each country sit around and change which oils they feel are best for their region with very little reason...

I responded with basically all the same questions you raised so we will see what they come back with.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: mickd on November 19, 2019, 22:43:11
Hyundai’s response for those interested:

 HMC stipulate to use only ACEA A5/B5 ore above.

“ACEA A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline and direct injection diesel engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3.

ACEA A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in high performance gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a High temperature / High shear rate (HTHS) viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s”

Shell Helix 5/30 oil meets ACEA A5/B5 (Shell Ultra does not meet ACEA A5/B5)

With regard to the first 1 Month/1500k service, the oil and filter are inspected not replaced.

And so" high shear" and "extended drain" seem to be the critial difference.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 19, 2019, 23:57:20
Based on those descriptions, yep. From my research high shear is better for fuel economy but not for engine wear. But, for engines designed to take a high shear oil (A5/B5) - it is unclear (which is why A3/B4 can be fitted into an A5/B5 engine but not the other way around), if these high shear oils 'protect' just the same as the A3/B4s.

Anyway, I just heard back from Hyundai. I don't think i will get much more out of them.

'The recommended is ACEA A5/B5.

As our dealerships are independently owned, they can outsource their own oil.
However if you wish to purchase the recommended you can contact the dealer parts department directly and enquire.
They have access to order the recommended Caltex oil that HMCA recommend.

You can replace the oil and filter at your first complimentary service, this is not a recommendation however you may enquire with the service after they have inspected your vehicle.

Let me know if you have any further questions.'
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 20, 2019, 06:21:18
After all that deliberation we're back to where we started :lol: use the A5B5 and you'll know you're covered either way  :link: Penrite Full Synthetic Engine Oil - 5W-30 6 Litre | Supercheap Auto (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/penrite-penrite-full-synthetic-engine-oil---5w-30-6-litre/348768.html#q=Penrite+5W-30&sz=33&start=8)

(https://i.imgur.com/hciADXZ.jpg)

When researching Hyundai oils years ago DVG Hyundai used the recommended Shell oil, AHG Hyundai used Castrol Magnatec until problems developed then switched to Castrol Edge, neither of them could explain to me why the A5B5 recommended in my book was not used :head_butt:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: NotaN on November 20, 2019, 13:07:38
I've been using Castrol Magnatec professional in the wife's i30 for the last 6 oil changes and was also using it in my old Ford Everest as that also required an A5 spec oil. I used Castrol edge 5w30 A3B4 in my wifes old Santa Fe and 2 oil analysis tests both came back as oil being well within spec after 15k. I like Castrol oil and have been using their products for 27 years  both at home and in workshops. I recently checked the valve clearances on a Mitsubishi ASX that I have serviced since new and at 190,000km service 'llhey were all within spec and there was no sludge build up or any staining in the head so that is proof enough to me after 7 years it's a decent oil
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 20, 2019, 13:25:22
I've been using Castrol Magnatec professional in the wife's i30 for the last 6 oil changes and was also using it in my old Ford Everest as that also required an A5 spec oil. I used Castrol edge 5w30 A3B4 in my wifes old Santa Fe and 2 oil analysis tests both came back as oil being well within spec after 15k. I like Castrol oil and have been using their products for 27 years  both at home and in workshops. I recently checked the valve clearances on a Mitsubishi ASX that I have serviced since new and at 190,000km service 'llhey were all within spec and there was no sludge build up or any staining in the head so that is proof enough to me after 7 years it's a decent oil
Magnatec has been Castrol's lower tier oil ever since it was introduced, most of the motoring industry know this hence why Hyundai dumped their use of it after reported issues.

I've not used the newer Professional mix though I'd only expect extra or better cleaning additives were added.

Edge is their top line product and would be far Superior in friction modifiers and sheer stabilisers  :)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 20, 2019, 21:10:00
haha it looks like it @CraigB.

I think i will use the Valvoline oil since it is what my service dept use anyway - https://www.repco.com.au/en/oils-fluids/specialty-fluids/small-engine-garden/valvoline-synpower-fe-5w30-1298-01/p/A9631643 (https://www.repco.com.au/en/oils-fluids/specialty-fluids/small-engine-garden/valvoline-synpower-fe-5w30-1298-01/p/A9631643)

That does't surprise. I am actually a bit surprised that my service dept uses an A5/B5 oil spec and one that is on the pricier side. I guess for the SR/Nline we need to service at 10k so extended drain period isn't so much of an issue. I'd like to know what are the differences in engines that are designed to take A5/B5 vs A3/B4?

If Castrol or Shell did an A5/B5 oil i would probably use that instead.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on November 20, 2019, 23:01:21
After a bit more of using the old Google..    I found that there is now a A5/B5 Castrol Edge oil available.   :link: Castrol EDGE Engine Oil - 10W-30, 5 litre | Supercheap Auto (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/castrol-castrol-edge-engine-oil---10w-30-5-litre/516277.html)
And looks to be pretty easily available.   But still, if your dealer is using the correct Valvoline product then I would stick with that as well.
The biggest difference between A3/B4 and A5/B5 is HTHS (high temperature high shear) For A5/B5 it's a min of 2.9 and a max of 3.5 but for A3/B4 the HTHS must be above 3.5
This is an interesting read about what & why with HTHS.   :link: How is HTHS Viscosity Measured? | Lubrizol Additives 360 (https://www.lubrizoladditives360.com/how-is-hths-viscosity-measured)

Of course this all has to do with Fuel Economy which also leads to emissions.   So technically the A3/B4 has a stronger shear (film) strength than the A5/B5 oil.
But also because of that, the A5/B5 oil will have better fuel efficiency.   Again if you were planing on doing track type work, then the smart move would be to use A3/B4 as it's a "stronger" oil.

But that also brings us back to Hyundai USA decision to change to a 5w-40 oil.  For as far as I have googled, there are no 5w-40 oils that are A5/B5.  So for some reason they require a stronger shear strenth oil.

Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 21, 2019, 00:11:04
Ah yes i did see the Castrol 10w30 but i would prefer 5w30 given Canberra winters are pretty cold and long lasting. I think the 5w vs 10w will be better for cold starts etc. i think the correct SAE is more important than using a Castrol A5 oil (for me anyway).

I think i read that article not along going during my search for oils. I agree, i think overall the A3/B4 oils are superior due to the sheer but i was also reading that if the engine is designed for A5/B5 - that an A5/B5 oil is superior for that particular engine. I just can't seem to find out exactly what is different in our A5 engines. Perhaps the A5/B5 oils are also doing as described in the article... 'As engine durability may be compromised as HTHS viscosity is lowered, it is essential that new technology and polymers are utilized in high performance engine lubricants to maintain durability'. So maybe other technologies are enhanced in our A5 oils to make up for a more compromised HTHS viscosity? or maybe the engines are designed so as not to be concerned with HTHS as much as an A3/B4 engine- which is why you can use A3 in an A5 engine but not the other way around?

Yeah, that is weird and doesn't fit into the picture at all. I assume that the 1.6Ts are the same in the U.S. as here? I was reading that the U.S. go more by API (SL, SN etc) as opposed to ACEA with is more of a Euro framework designed more for emissions and extended drain intervals where as API and Dexos (which is also a U.S. regulatory system) has much shorter drain intervals. Maybe Hyundai in the U.S. are more concerned with the API framework? I know that there is a lot of disagreement between the 2 frameworks, car manufacturers, oil companies as well as the engineers who develop the engines as they are all looking to take things in different directions - Drain interval vs performance vs emissions vs engine protection etc. But, i would assume the U.S. 1.6Ts have the same service intervals as ours  :crazy1: :crazy2:

http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm (http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm)


All our ACEA A5 oils are SL (2004 and prior) where as the A3/B4 oils are mainly SN and SN+. Gets a bit confusing. I'd love to find a ACEA A5/B5 and SN+ oil if possible. I was reading that the i30 has a direct injection turbo, so LSPI may be a consideration in oil choice which is SN+. One of those Mobil oils seems to be LSPI rated, A5 and SN+. But again, I don't know if the U.S engines are the same as ours?


 :link: European Oils - Auto Service World (https://www.autoserviceworld.com/carsmagazine/european-oils/)


This doc is also really good and talks about all the different associations and their competing priorities for anyone interested:

http://www.infineuminsight.com/media/1816/5-engine-oil-specifications-na.pdf (http://www.infineuminsight.com/media/1816/5-engine-oil-specifications-na.pdf)

Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 21, 2019, 03:52:15
Of course this all has to do with Fuel Economy which also leads to emissions.   So technically the A3/B4 has a stronger shear (film) strength than the A5/B5 oil.
But also because of that, the A5/B5 oil will have better fuel efficiency.   Again if you were planing on doing track type work, then the smart move would be to use A3/B4 as it's a "stronger" oil.

But that also brings us back to Hyundai USA decision to change to a 5w-40 oil.  For as far as I have googled, there are no 5w-40 oils that are A5/B5.  So for some reason they require a stronger shear strenth oil.
No reason to not stick with an A5B5 oil even with track work, if you want better protection then use a PAO oil which is designed for extreme conditions and sheer free.

I use true synthetic PAO oil exclusively in mine as I do like to blow the cobwebs out now and again :Drive: tuned to just shy of 8000rpm I need this anyway and protects better over summer while retaining fuel efficiency. 

 :link: 10 TENTHS RACING 5W-30 (100% PAO & ESTER) | Penrite Oil (https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/10-tenths-racing-5w-30-100-pao-ester)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 22, 2019, 02:46:12
I've seen that oil and it looks pretty good (if true to its ratings). Appears to be AB5 as well as SN. I do wonder though how they manage to tick all those boxes (including GF5). Penrites HPR was a Group 3 Syn oil derived from a mineral base and then highly processed to extract impurities, mix in additives to then ultimately create a full Syn oil. Our regulations allow fully syn oils to originate (well, at least they did) from mineral base and allow this to be marketed as fully syn, where as in other countries full syn oils must originate from Group 4 and 5 oils. Perhaps this has changed since i lasted looked this up?

What work have you had done to yours CraigB? How any kw is it pulling?

Also, as an unrelated note - roughly how long does it take for the i30 SR/Nline to reach 'operating temp'? For e.g. to check the oil you wait for operating temp and then wait 5 minutes or you shouldn't rev it hard before it reaches operating temp. I thought that operating temp was engine oil temp, but when i asked AU Hyundai they said that once the temp gauge reaches just below the middle - that you have reached operating temp. I thought that this gauge was the coolant temp and coolant temp is not operating temp.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 22, 2019, 05:35:02
@robbo137 All full synthetics are mineral based (Shell Ultra being the exception with the base made from gas) with enough percentage of synthetic additives allowing them to be called full synthetic.

True synthetics - PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) are explained in Penrite FAQ’s

 :link: FAQs | Penrite Oil (https://www.penriteoil.com.au/faqs#/318/What-is-the-difference-between-mineral),-semi-synthetic-(SEMI-SYN.)-and-full-synthetic-(FULL-SYN.)-base-oils%3F

Mine was a non turbo 1.6ltr 99kw model, now about 125kw at the treads after post tune modifications on throttle body and intake after initial exhaust/extractor/timing mods.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 22, 2019, 06:03:57
Looks like a definitional issue as Penrite describe full syn oils as being G3 and premium syn as being 4/5. I think in a lot of other countries to market as full syn you have to be group 4/5, rather than group 3. To the consumer you’d probably think fully synthetic = premium/true synthetic here in Aus but they don’t have to distinguish that in their marketing.

Which yeah, means your PAO oil going by their definitions is G4/5 - might be worth a crack!

That’s a decent amount of increase from that work you did! Makes me want to squeeze another 25-50kws out.. but then warranty..
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 22, 2019, 07:02:48
Much easier to gain extra out of the turbos, RaceChip can make your dreams come true :)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on November 22, 2019, 07:04:24
I read a bit about those before. Possible to get 200+...? :whistler:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on November 22, 2019, 07:13:05
I read a bit about those before. Possible to get 200+...? :whistler:
I believe the GTS (top tier) will give you +49 HP+116 Nm
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on December 31, 2019, 11:56:12
Just a bit of info as we are going along that way..

I did mentioned before that my Hyundai dealer that has been servicing my car, has been using Mobil Oil in the 5w-30 grade. Which is the correct grade.
That what was showing on the invoice that I received.
On getting the cars 40,000k service today. The invoice has Mobil Formula S 5w-30. https://lubes.mobil.com/AP-English-LCW/carengineoils_au_products_mobil-formula-s2-5w30.aspx# (https://lubes.mobil.com/AP-English-LCW/carengineoils_au_products_mobil-formula-s2-5w30.aspx#)
Which is only a Semi Synthetic.   So maybe it looks like they have been using that Oil all along..
I had some Penrite 5w-30 A5/B5 oil still from when I brought a cpl of them while they were on special..
So I drained that oil out & put in the Penrite..   Because it doesn't sound right that a Semi Synthetic should be going into a turbo engine..   Thought ???
(https://i.ibb.co/4gdj50s/IMG-0610.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pry39kW)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on December 31, 2019, 15:56:26
@Purplehazeffc That's pretty sneaky of them :disapp:  I agree semi synthetic shouldn't be used in high rpm turbo engines, just doesn't have the sheer strength compared to full syn or better still PAO spec.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on December 31, 2019, 22:08:33
@Purplehazeffc That's pretty sneaky of them :disapp:  I agree semi synthetic shouldn't be used in high rpm turbo engines, just doesn't have the sheer strength compared to full syn or better still PAO spec.

Which is exactly what I was thinking..  I'll message Hyundai service department on Facebook & see what they say.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on December 31, 2019, 22:10:47
Wow @Purplehazeffc

That’s a bit weird! Is it an A5/B5 oil? I couldn’t find it anywhere in the oils info on google. I found that it is API SN. I also would have thought that a semi syn would be a no no.

Maybe it was a typo from them?... hopefully.  Seems a bit odd to me they’d put that oil in?
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: mickd on January 01, 2020, 00:37:55
Point 4 : Speaker in boot couldn't check spare
would have been a case of WTF !!   :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on January 01, 2020, 01:28:36
Wow @Purplehazeffc

That’s a bit weird! Is it an A5/B5 oil? I couldn’t find it anywhere in the oils info on google. I found that it is API SN. I also would have thought that a semi syn would be a no no.

Maybe it was a typo from them?... hopefully.  Seems a bit odd to me they’d put that oil in?

All Mobil's website says that it is API SN, as you have mentioned.  There is no ACEA rating for that oil that I can find.
But it's the fact that it is a semi syn that looks to be the odd thing..
And to add to that, I had a turbo bearing failure at around the 15,000k mark that was fixed under warranty when I had my 20,000k service.
If the dealer had been using the same oil, as it was stated Mobil Oil 5w-30 on all my other service invoices. Make me wonder if that could've been a cause.
Point 4 : Speaker in boot couldn't check spare
would have been a case of WTF !!   :rofl: :rofl:
That would be the subwoofer box.  Maybe just to hard to move I guess. But if they did they may have been more confused.


(https://i.ibb.co/94ts2Js/IMG-20181206-165845.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QHdrnZr)
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on January 01, 2020, 02:01:56
Yeah I wouldn’t be happy if a semi syn was put in my car. I looked at the Mobil lube site and the one they used isn’t recommended at all. It’s odd they had the audacity to state it on your invoice.. maybe they think it can be used safely?

Not a far stretch to assume perhaps your earlier issue is related. Is there another Hy dealer where you are you can take it too?

I spoke with a Hy tech at my dealer and he was really helpful for my oil questions. He said the best time to change oil in our engines is 7500km.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: mickd on January 01, 2020, 04:17:04
As mentioned elsewhere , dealers use what they can get the cheapest by the 200L drum.The drum usually has a product code number and nothing else, so it may be a typo .
Hy dealer at Bega uses Castrol PRO , heard service guy double checking full oil details and specifics as Castrol had changed the code that was on the drum, but not what was on the computer ordering system. ie, order one code and another code arrived.
Anti theft ??
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Purplehazeffc on January 01, 2020, 04:29:42
There is not really any other closer dealer. I would say 30 -40 ks away. Where the current one is 10ks at most.

I'll ask Hyundai Service Tech & see what they say.

It could be a typo. But they do use Mobil Oil going by the 3 previous services & the sticker they put on the windscreen.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on January 01, 2020, 05:11:38
30kms isn’t too far if they use a better spec oil. Mine is around 25km away I think. Maybe give both dealers a call and see what oil they use?

Maybe either a typo or they used the wrong oil by mistake? I know my dealer uses valvoline A5 oil for turbos and uses similar spec oil as the one you just got for non turbo Hyundais...Except I think it’s still a fully synthetic. But maybe they keep some semi syn around for older engines and used the wrong one? Either way it’s a pretty big error I guess.

Typo would be best case scenario.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on January 01, 2020, 07:20:22
No point in changing dealer/service centre if you are overall happy with them, just buy your own oil for them to use.

@Purplehazeffc I wouldn't be letting them add there injector cleaner either, I think you've mentioned previously you are already using 95 or 98 so that'll do all the cleaning necessary :goodjob2:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Patteri on January 01, 2020, 09:53:01
Whoa your dealers in Australia are quite something!

Oil change every 7500km?! That is the same rip off as in the North Americas 5000 mile rip off.

Only use good quality oils and Hyundai engines will go for a very long time (300k+). In Finland the oil change is every 15000km and that is the importers way to steal our money. All the other manufacturers have the same high quality oils and motors with 30000km change intervals and NO problems! It is safe to say, if you can drive 30k in the winters of Finland with no problems, then 15k is very safe. 7500km is just mocking the customer and stealing money in exchange for the guarantee.

The 1500km oil change is pretty much just a way to get a bit more sales margin from the new car sale. That is the reason for the original posts high price for a oil change with own oil supplied vs oil of the dealer. If the dealer makes 5000 dollars from the sale and 75 dollars from a unnecessary service, then you can count the sales margins percents very easily (1,5% more compared to the profit made from original sale and even larger percent if a smaller sales margin on the original sale).

Also it isn't too far to assume that the delivery fee ( I hear is outrageous in Australia?) should include delivery inspection, why do a another one in 1500km if the original inspection was made properly? In Finland this delivery fee is 600 euros for the transport of the vehicle and taking of the protecting plastics (badly) and surely isn't even close to the real cost of the delivery when comparing to the normal labour costs of the dealer.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Dazzler on January 01, 2020, 10:25:16
@Patteri

Our 1500 service is usually a free one. I agree with you that in normal driving conditions $7,500 oil changes are overkill. Being that I did over 30 K per year in the two years I had my 2017 SR I was disappointed in the 10 K service interval but could live with that. Most of my 34 cars have been15K as per my current hybrid and that certainly suits me better.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on January 01, 2020, 11:57:30
I don’t think he meant 7500km for NA engines but more so for your turbos. He was talking about the N, SR and golfs etc as well as other performance engines he builds. He said he found 7500km vs 5 or 10k to be the optimal interval. Not sure how legitimate that is, but we covered heaps of topics and chatted for a good 40 mins and he seemed to know his stuff. He was also probably talking about cars that are tracked and put under quite heavy load.

Good point @CraigB about not changing  dealers if happy with the overall service. For me it would depend on why or how the error was made on if I would take my business elsewhere. With any luck it was just a typo.

 
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: CraigB on January 01, 2020, 14:06:31
@Patteri

Our 1500 service is usually a free one. I agree with you that in normal driving conditions $7,500 oil changes are overkill.
$7,500 oil change is really over the top :crazy1: :D

The 7500km changes are also classed as an intermediate service (not compulsory) which you'll see offered more frequently in the warmer climate countries, extreme temperatures - towing - aggressive driving are all good reasons to consider intermediate services.
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: Dazzler on January 01, 2020, 21:43:54
@Patteri

Our 1500 service is usually a free one. I agree with you that in normal driving conditions $7,500 oil changes are overkill.
$7,500 oil change is really over the top :crazy1: :D

The 7500km changes are also classed as an intermediate service (not compulsory) which you'll see offered more frequently in the warmer climate countries, extreme temperatures - towing - aggressive driving are all good reasons to consider intermediate services.

Obviously dealers are more than happy to encourage more frequent servicing. They tried to tell me 7500 intervals on the SR and the Kona.. I can't print my reply here.

The sort of people who advocate  7500 intervals are the same ones who put 98 in when Hyundai is happy to give 5 year (or even 7) unlimited kilometre warranty while saying 91 or E10 are both adequate.

I understand if the car is constantly towing heavy loads or driven hard in high temperates, more frequent changes may be a good idea, but for the average joe blow I still consider it over kill and a waste of money. Modern Fully Synthetic oils are amazing and offer terrific protection. 10k is not far.., I can run that up in a couple of months...  :whistler:
Title: Re: Oil type and first service (1500km)
Post by: robbo137 on January 01, 2020, 23:31:42
I agree and think that 10k km is frequent enough for oil changes. I’ll be changing at the 10k mark interval. Not sure if he was trying to make money out of me as when I said I’ll book in at the 5k mark to drop the break in oil out he said not to bother and that there is no point and to just leave it in till the first 10k service. He said 7500k if tracking the car but 10k is more than adequate for your everyday turbo car that gets a bit of a boot full here and there.

I was going to drop the factory fill at either the 1500km or 5k km mark but he talked me out of it and saved me $150. I’ll probably need to change every 1k with the amount of smoke we are getting here. Surely that can’t be good for your engine?

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