[Martin]

It all boils down to this, I do not have a financial interest with the results.
End of story.

Not quite...
You have no results, no testing, just opinions formed outside the laws of physics to make you feel good about the modifications you have performed to your car.
Enjoy

[Thumper]

Not quite...
You have no results, no testing, just opinions formed outside the laws of physics to make you feel good about the modifications you have performed to your car.
Enjoy

 

Thank you for not replying to any of the questions put forth by myself and others.

Thank you for also showing your true knowledge in this area, resorting to idle comments when you have nothing to provide.

Thank you for showing your true colours.

There is more to the automotive world than just playing around on a Dyno.

Hope you do well with your business.

Thumper.

[whitbomb07]

I can't provide much to this as I have very little mechanical knowledge, I think my Mechanical IQ matches my age (21)

What I can do is back up Thumpers story on the temps.

Both Thumper and I have Scangauge II's fitted to our vehicle, my engine is stock standard, his is equipped with a Tuning Box.

We found (through the use of radios, which is legal whilst driving as I am also a licensed amateur radio operator) that at all times his temps at the intercooler were lower than mine were, uphil, down hill, on flat whatever.

I'll end with a bit of history, during the Korean War the most decisive aircraft in the Air war was the MiG-15 (Koreans) and the F-86 Sabre (US) on paper the MiG-15 was superior in almost every way, speed, acceleration, time to altitude, max altitude, roll and turn rates, yet the F-86 was often the victor in the battles.

It's all well and good saying 'look this is better on paper' but that isn't always the case in the real world.

For me I have to see it to believe it, my teachers hated me for that...............

I don't deny what your stuff does Martin, but I have seen what the tuning box does and it does work.

Regards

Daniel

[Thumper]

Thank you Daniel.

Those VOX headsets work well. 

The key word throughout everything I do is 'Efficiency'

Something some others forget around here. 

[EymaTeapot]

Nothing like a good heated debate.
I would have to award points just in favour of thumper.

[Lakes]

well the intercooler temp is only coming from the intake side of the Turbo, it's not as important as exhast temp, exhast temp should be taken between exhast port and turbo.
i have used exhast temp sensors in the past but with petrol or meth.

but if thumpers temps were lower, would expect the tune was leaner at the time, but did thumper use stock exhast or a free flowing exhast?

you see i think the intake side of the turbo could run cooler with free flowing exhast, But who knows what the temp at the piston is? the exhast sensor would be a must i would say. but mostly because of the aussie climate.

[Rubix]

I'm going to post this before I finish reading it all: wow, I love forum arguments. Great reading!

[EymaTeapot]

I am with you Rubix.
 

[Rubix]

I can't really add much to this conversation, but I feel the need to clarify one or two things - first, the law of physics you point out doesn't end in Armageddon. The engine operating temp can increase or decrease within a range without any negative effect. Not one you'll see inside of 20 years. Second, about that 6 car drive - we were driving a nice dual-carriage (4 lane) mountain run, and certain cars struggled while others pulled away, all going up hill around a bend. I can only put my foot down so far, and as I did I watched one car pull away as others chugged. The only other tuning box (I believe there was only one other at the meet) was waiting patiently for my slow petrol behind to crawl up in front of him. Per exhausts, free flowing vs not - if his engine is heating up as you say, free flowing exhaust should be more effective at cooling the thing down shouldn't it?

Please note, I'm a car novice, I'm learning from you guys. Don't tell me something like "if you drive your upside down it goes faster".

[Lakes]

Rubix m8, I've seen a Landrover Discovery 3 blow up with a tuning box and a lady driver that had a heavy foot. but different motor and heavy load on it, she keeps horses. i think she cracked an exhast valve seat from heat, but will never know as she traded it off on a new Swift ( can't use horse float now.) but i would still like one, as i do beleave they could help economy. i have had petrol motors set lean and then changed the tune giving them more fuel in mid range and saw an economy gain putting more fuel in, reason is i gained power and TQ and did not have to use throtle as much.
i think we should all get on, as some usefull helpfull info in here that is given freely and in good faith. and i thank each and everyone of you, & hope i have not offended anyone. as all i ever wish is to give out what i beleave and have learnt over the years. could be worthless snake oil but i beleave in what i put down. the Bell line of road is a great road for demonstraighting how Power Torque and driver skill works. years ago i was on what we called a stroker ( Harley with big inch motor) this bike looked stock but had a totally hand built motor and was set up to ride hard. i was with a group, had a guy i had just meet talking about his bike and how hard it went. it was in winter and 11pm at night at Richmond when we left was cold for us Aussies i had that guy with bright lights riding up my butt all the way then i slowed down let him pass just before Mount tommah as we went up that mountain i was on his tail he was giving his bike everything then half way up i just opened up and said good bye i hit black ice on that bend near the to going toward lithgow i slid a bit and gripped, aftr i hit the top i just eased up let him catch me and go past i said nothing. two weeks latter at a party in Sydney that same guy came up and said he would love to ride my bike. that mountain is a great demonstraighter. but as the law stands now have to go easy but you can still see TQ.
cheers

[LuciferDarklord]

I probably should keep my mouth shut here, but here's my 2c worth....  I agree with Martin about the tuning box, I wouldnt put one near my car - for the simple reason is that Bosch (and Hyundai) have made the fuel system the way it is for a reason.  I'm sure that if they could increase the fuel pressure safely they would have.  I speculate that the pump, injectors, pressure regulator or the rail itself are outside of the design limits and could fail.  How long this would take is anyones guess, and Bosch tend to be pretty conservative people - but if I wanted to throw my warranty out the window and get more power and torque, I personally would go Martin's route, and go further - removing the factory safety net.  Like I said previously - If Bosch were able to safely increase the pressure of the rail, they would have!  As for the injection timing and quantity of fuel, this is probably Hyundai's call, and would be based on things like combustion temp, EGT, emissions, logevity etc.  So if all you are compromising is emissions - then why not!  But I suspect the compromise may be more than just emissions.  Just my 2c worth but I thought I'd share my opinion.  My knowledge is limited to the older Bosch mechanical systems - but I've seen the design tolerances they work with and these guys dont just pluck numbers out of the air - everything - every single specification they give is exhaustively tested, and if you stick to them, the system is bulletproof.  Venture outside those parameters at your own risk.

[Dazzler]

 My knowledge is limited to the older Bosch mechanical systems - but I've seen the design tolerances they work with and these guys dont just pluck numbers out of the air - everything - every single specification they give is exhaustively tested, and if you stick to them, the system is bulletproof.  Venture outside those parameters at your own risk.

Thanks for sharing your opinion L-D (It's always good to get frank and honest thoughts) 

[Thumper]

I speculate that the pump, injectors, pressure regulator or the rail itself are outside of the design limits and could fail.

Actually, the pressure limiter valve (And subsequent fuel return valve) are not touched, hence the rail pressure remains operating up to, but never beyond the maximum set by Hyundai and Bosch.

If fuel pressure exceeds maximum operating tolerances, then the return valve will open, relieving the excess fuel pressure back to the fuel tank.

Oh, before anyone has a hissy fit about breaking laws of the universe, upping fuel rail pressure does not equate to more fuel being squirted into the engine. (This is only true if the injector pulse width remains constant, like in a mechanical diesel pump system)

Since we are dealing with a electronic injector (Much like a fuel injector in a petrol engined vehicle) they can by programmed to open for longer periods of time (More fuel per time frame) or opened for less time (Less fuel per time frame)

There is a very simple way in changing the injector pulse width (Well, three out of the four pulses per injection cycle, per cylinder) without resorting to cracking the ECU.

Though, don't listen to me, I don't know what I am talking about (Everything I have posted thus far on this board I have no idea about!)  , haven't done any testing  (Over 30,000km thus far) have no results  (More power, better economy and a cooler running engine shown to many on here)

Yup, I have no idea, so I must be EXTREMELY lucky with everything I have done thus far! 

Geez, Thump, I'm starting to believe you are Demagogue!   

[LuciferDarklord]

Actually, the pressure limiter valve (And subsequent fuel return valve) are not touched, hence the rail pressure remains operating up to, but never beyond the maximum set by Hyundai and Bosch.

If fuel pressure exceeds maximum operating tolerances, then the return valve will open, relieving the excess fuel pressure back to the fuel tank.

Oh, before anyone has a hissy fit about breaking laws of the universe, upping fuel rail pressure does not equate to more fuel being squirted into the engine. (This is only true if the injector pulse width remains constant, like in a mechanical diesel pump system)

Since we are dealing with a electronic injector (Much like a fuel injector in a petrol engined vehicle) they can by programmed to open for longer periods of time (More fuel per time frame) or opened for less time (Less fuel per time frame)

There is a very simple way in changing the injector pulse width (Well, three out of the four pulses per injection cycle, per cylinder) without resorting to cracking the ECU.

Though, don't listen to me, I don't know what I am talking about (Everything I have posted thus far on this board I have no idea about!)  , haven't done any testing  (Over 30,000km thus far) have no results  (More power, better economy and a cooler running engine shown to many on here)

Yup, I have no idea, so I must be EXTREMELY lucky with everything I have done thus far! 

I think the pressure relief valve is probably set a bit higher than the day to day operating design pressure, to prevent the rail bursting if the return valve gets blocked or a line gets pinched etc. 

Also, unless the injector is at 'choked flow' I think you will find the amount of fuel injected per opening will increase as the rail pressure increases, if the duty cycle remains the same.  Thats why a petrol engine has a vacuum (and/or boost) controlled regulator to keep the pressure differential across the injector constant, regardless of manifold pressure.  Why does the ECU need to know the fuel rail pressure and be able to vary it then?  They could just put in a fixed rate regulator that keeps the same pressure at all flow rates.  And any changes to temp sensors or flow meters is only shifting the whole map in either direction, not an 'ideal' situation especially at partial loads.

I'm not questioning your results or testing, nor am I saying that you shouldnt do the mod - its your car - you can do with it as you please!  You may not even be 'lucky', the equipment may handle the extra loads for years to come.  All I'm saying is that if the engineers at Bosch (and Hyundai) thought they could safely increase these paramters - they would!  They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Just enjoy your mod and realise that some people are after something different from their cars and may have a different opinion.  If I wanted a car to modify I would buy one out of warranty - or like yourself - choose to modify it anyway.

[Shambles]

Following a number of complaints received by the moderation team, this topic has been closed.

Members are asked to keep threads on topic as much as possible and not allow personal agendas to creep in and degenerate the discussions.

Thanks