[AlanHo]

I am not really a political animal but I am incensed about the government spending £9.3 million of taxpayers money to send us all a 16 page leaflet stuffed with propaganda about staying in the EU.

This is a sneaky ploy to argue the IN case using our tax payers money. Those advocating that we should vote OUT have to be self-funding.

They are doing this after formally promising, when the referendum was announced, that they would be even handed and do no such thing.

Whether you intend voting IN or OUT you should protest at this sneaky ploy because it is another promise broken by the Government and flies in the face of traditional British fair play.  We were promised a free and fair referendum and that promise has been callously smashed.

I originally intended returning my leaflet to No 10 Downing Street by putting it back in the post “Return to Sender”. But this would be a cost to the Post Office which is unfair.

A better way is to send it back the Conservative party using the FREEPOST address used for donations.

Here it is – please consider using it to return the leaflet  (or if you are so minded - to enclose a cheque in support of the Party).

Joanna George
FREEPOST RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE
The Conservative Party Foundation
30 Millbank
London
SW1P 4DP

[Doggie 1]

I couldn't agree with you more, Alan.

[asathorny]

Oh buggeration I sent mine through the shredder straight from the door mat....  I would however have done as you suggest had I waited and still had it...... 

Also, and I am not keen on this particular MP, but I fully support is statement i.e.    "DODGY DAVE"

Also didja notice that they have tried to dilute his wrong doing by wheeling other MPs who had dodgy finance  Like Churchill and Pit the younger all of whom are/where conservatives, Churchill being a racist bigot who thought the workers to be scum in much the same way as is great G grandfather at Waterloo....

Oh no, you've got me incensed AGAIN.  Stop pushing my buttons Alan 

[Shambles]

Yep - big on Mugbook at the moment - let the Conservatives pay the return postage bill.

[eye30]

Oh buggeration I sent mine through the shredder straight from the door mat....  I would however have done as you suggest had I waited and still had it...... 

Get it out the shredder, stick it back together and return.    Sorted

[Doggie 1]

Having said that, I really hope that the people vote OUT of the EU. 

[eye30]

What i would like is an unbiased leaflet which details the in and out issues side by side.

Then based on this unbiased info make my decision.

But this will never happen......unless the force be with you.....

[Doggie 1]

If you vote "out" you can close your borders to illegals AND have more powerful vacuum cleaners.   

[AlanHo]

If you vote "out" you can close your borders to illegals AND have more powerful vacuum cleaners.   

That idea sucks..................

[Doggie 1]

If you vote "out" you can close your borders to illegals AND have more powerful vacuum cleaners.   

That idea sucks..................

 

[asathorny]

What i would like is an unbiased leaflet which details the in and out issues side by side.

Then based on this unbiased info make my decision.

But this will never happen......unless the force be with you.....

But Lester, no one knows and if they say the do they're lying    However Alan and I easily recall life before the EU and when we joined it was as trading partners, whereas now it seems to be about Brussels making/changing our laws for us 

[AlanHo]

Alan and I easily recall life before the EU and when we joined it was as trading partners, whereas now it seems to be about Brussels making/changing our laws for us 

In support of asa the referendum in 1975 was whether we should join the European Economic Community which was being sold to us as a massive free trading agreement and would leave us self governing with a right to veto any Euro regulations that did not suit us.
This was a massive con - one example being that 6 months after signing, our fishing rights were over-ruled and we suddenly found Spanish, French, Dutch etc boats were given the rights to fish right up to our beaches and we were saddled with a Common Agricultural Policy which favoured the French and forced us into ripping up our trade agreements with Australia, New Zealand and other trading partners. Our veto was totally ignored.

So much for the so called European Economic Community as a free trade organisation

The name was later changed - without a vote - to the European Community

And again later without a vote  - to the European Union
(with the implied intent that we should become the United States of Europe with total integration).

Enoch Powell made a prophetic speech in 1976 - just a year after the 1975 referendum on whether we should continue to be members of the EEC - castigated the government for misleading its people because they knew - but would not publicly admit - that we were heading for a complete political, financial and legal governance union within a few decades.  He made the point that Jim Callaghan had been a vociferous opponent of the EEC for years, but when Labour returned to power he was appointed Foreign Secretary in 1974, taking responsibility for renegotiating the terms of Britain's membership of the European Economic Community. Within 2 months of becoming a Minister, the mandarins (Civil Servants) in his department - as they had in most government departments with their ministers - caused him to flip his views. 


In the decisive debates on the European Communities Bill in 1972, Powell explained over and over yet again that the real purpose of the “project” we were being asked to sign up to was to create a political government for Europe; and that our own elected Parliament had no right to subordinate itself in perpetuity to an unelected supranational body, which could impose on us laws not in our national interest.

When the Bill included a clause empowering ministers to put anything coming from Brussels straight into British law without consulting Parliament, Tony Benn memorably observed that this open-ended surrender of our power to govern ourselves was “a coup d’état by a political class who did not believe in popular sovereignty”.

The two prime ministers who took us into “Europe”, Harold Macmillan and Edward Heath, were both made fully aware that the “Common Market” was only ever intended to be a front to the project’s real, long-term political intentions. But freedom of information later revealed that in 1961 Macmillan told his Cabinet that this must be kept out of view. The deal must be sold to the British people as no more than an “economic arrangement”, affecting no more than trade and jobs – as was faithfully echoed by Heath in 1971.

It is exactly that same deception which will be used to dominate the “Yes” side’s campaign in this second referendum 40 years later. History is repeating itself.


 

[asathorny]

There ya go Lester, an excellent analysis of the situation...

well done Alan 

[diablo]

I can't argue very much with Alan's summary of events. As he says both Macmillan and Heath knew of the secret agenda for how the EEC would evolve. To be fair to them I think one of their main objectives was to bond Europe together to prevent a repetition of the two world wars.

There was a big majority in favour of staying in at the 1975 referendum, though in following years I've found precious few willing to admit to voting 'in'.  I did vote leave, though I can't prove it.  I was convinced by the likes of Peter Shore.

[AlanHo]

Sad but true - in the 1975 referendum only 42% of the electorate voted to stay in - the rest voted No or didn't bother to vote

[Surferdude]

Be interesting to see how the changed Ethnic mix affects the vote now.
I guess if  you want family members to be able to join you, you'd want to keep the borders open.

[Phil №❶]

It's a great pity that in such a small land area you have so many restrictive governments and cultural variations. If you want to maintain ANY freedom, get out ASAP, IMO.

[Doggie 1]

 

[eye30]

Just read the booklet that came yesterday and seems all doom and gloom if UK brexit.

[AlanHo]

It's been tweaked by a psychologist to take advantage of the gullible.

Believe all that guff - and you'd believe anything.

[eye30]

It's been tweaked by a psychologist to take advantage of the gullible.

Believe all that guff - and you'd believe anything.

I voted in 1975 (and also worked as a Poll Clerk then counted the votes) as it was for the common market which I believed would be good for uk industry.

today it seems to be £££££££ for MEP's

[AlanHo]

I don't think they get paid in pounds - it would be the ultimate insult........

[eye30]

I don't think they get paid in pounds - it would be the ultimate insult........

Sterling will be the #1 come 24 june,.....

[AlanHo]

Lester - I don't want to cause you disappointment but I fear that the same will happen as in 1975. The vote is likely to be to stay in - and by a significant majority.

There are too many Corbyn and Cameron followers who are scared of the unknown. Even though they cannot recognise the fact that there are just as many, if not more,  unknowns if we stay in.

The only consolation I get is that being 79 I am unlikely to live much beyond the point when the new status - be it In or OUT really kicks in.  Its going to take us more than 7 years to get out if the vote is OUT because the government will not be in a hurry to break all the ties.

Conversely if we vote to stay IN it will take a similar period for the EU to drag us with them into anarchy.

[eye30]

I'm still undecided but swaying towards everton to beat man u un the semi final

[Dazzler]

I'm still undecided but swaying towards everton to beat man u un the semi final

 

[AlanHo]

None UK members can see the Government leaflet which incensed me here :-

Microsoft OneDrive - Access files anywhere. Create docs with free Office Online.

[Phil №❶]

Not an expert on this decision at all, but the document is particularly worded as a scare campaign for those who don't think too deeply. How you can have a stronger economy by combining your resources with some countries that are broke, beats me. The insolvent countries joined because they are insolvent and to obtain benefits form richer countries. If UK exports are so strong to EU, who is paying for them?

Years of uncertainty, Really. Same thing happened Aus & NZ when you left us to join the EU, but we survived. I suggest that your pollies are too lazy to renegotiate trade deals with other countries in the world, hence uncertainty.

What is Canada stuffing around with the EU. Not exactly in the near vicinity IMO.

The govt owes the thinking population an unbiased presentation, not this rubbish. Of course, they don't want to be seen to have made bad decisions in the past, I guess.

As far as controlling borders,,,,,, 

[Shambles]

I wonder if we'll reduce the level of VAT (GST) to what it formerly was prior to the EU's interference? I'd be happy with 5%

[asathorny]

I wonder if we'll reduce the level of VAT (GST) to what it formerly was prior to the EU's interference? I'd be happy with 5%

    our resident comedian