Author Topic: OIL SEAL FAILURE_ 130 motor removal  (Read 1348 times)

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OIL SEAL FAILURE_ 130 motor removal
« January 09, 2018, 02:22:47 »
How does one remove a 2012 i30 manual petrol motor? Up thru the bonnet opening or drop the lot out underneath the car?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 16:47:15 by nzenigma » »


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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #1 : January 09, 2018, 02:44:55 »
How does one remove a 2012 i30 manual petrol motor? Up thru the bonnet opening or drop the lot out underneath the car?

Well, I'm sure there will be some opinions on this one. Gary @nzenigma I'm sure will have some clever ideas.

In the factory the whole front end , stering rack, egine / trans are assembled onto this.



and then that is raised up to the body and bolted on.

The alternate obviously is up out through the bonnet. I did a whole transplant for a diesel that way but it was tight and required some interesting manouvres to get it in.

I removed the front , bumper , headlights etc. Disconnected the control arms, strut towers and removed the hub and shafts in their entirety, all harnesses fuel lines etc disconnected then removed the engine and trans as one unit.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #2 : January 09, 2018, 03:23:10 »
If it is just the motor,  no other issues,  take the bonnet off and lift it up and out. If you have clutch issues etc etc ,drop the whole  sub frame .

Any reason other than an oil filter change that you are asking this question ?  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #3 : January 09, 2018, 04:54:18 »
Have a major oil leak problem around the front main bearing cap after having replaced the sump gasket.   Even with this replacement oil is still being pumped out  so we suspect that is an internal issue such as a cracked main bearing cap or block.   As the car is still at a dealership service centre and they are still trying to diagnose the oil leak and having paid $300 for a new sump gasket I have made enquiries for a 40,000 km long motor for the right price, I thought that this would be a cheaper option than leaving it with the  service centre to fix the problem.  I can arrange for a mechanic friend to replace the motor but he needs to know which way the motor has to come out as I would like to replace the clutch assembly at same time which I thought was attached to the engine flywheel and would come out with the motor leaving the gearbox and drive train in situ.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #4 : January 09, 2018, 05:06:35 »
Have a major oil leak problem around the front main bearing cap after having replaced the sump gasket.   Even with this replacement oil is still being pumped out  so we suspect that is an internal issue such as a cracked main bearing cap or block.   As the car is still at a dealership service centre and they are still trying to diagnose the oil leak and having paid $300 for a new sump gasket I have made enquiries for a 40,000 km long motor for the right price, I thought that this would be a cheaper option than leaving it with the  service centre to fix the problem.  I can arrange for a mechanic friend to replace the motor but he needs to know which way the motor has to come out as I would like to replace the clutch assembly at same time which I thought was attached to the engine flywheel and would come out with the motor leaving the gearbox and drive train in situ.

? Is this FD series 2L motor, G4GC?

There is no sump gasket. Should be FIPG, (ThreeBond TB1217H or equivalent)

SO what's the history of this? How does a front main bearing cap leak outside of the engine? Where';s that thought coming from?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:38:33 by tw2005 » »
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #5 : January 09, 2018, 05:19:14 »
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #6 : January 09, 2018, 05:20:23 »
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #7 : January 09, 2018, 05:39:37 »
 Is a G4GC engine which has done ~96,000 km and until this oil leak, which was noticed just prior to Christmas, has been problem free.   The information Ive provided in previous post has come from the service centre which is currently trying to fix the issue.

Please note that when driving through a very heavy rain storm in early November I did hear a knocking sound, but which was put down to the windscreen wipers working overtime.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #8 : January 09, 2018, 05:55:02 »
Is a G4GC engine which has done ~96,000 km and until this oil leak, which was noticed just prior to Christmas, has been problem free.   The information Ive provided in previous post has come from the service centre which is currently trying to fix the issue.

Please note that when driving through a very heavy rain storm in early November I did hear a knocking sound, but which was put down to the windscreen wipers working overtime.
96000k , and 2012 model just outside warranty and serviced no doubt. seems premature.

Well that's a shame , was hoping to get clarification where it's leaking out from. For me you have the sump, or the mating surfaces of the oil pump and block, the front seal or maybe cracked pump housing??

Hope you get it sorted.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #9 : January 09, 2018, 17:16:08 »

Well that's a shame , was hoping to get clarification where it's leaking out from. For me you have the sump, or the mating surfaces of the oil pump and block, the front seal or maybe cracked pump housing??

@2xcatz  hasn't told us how HE knew there was a leak and where He saw it coming from.
Lets assume he has the knowledge of Mr. average modern motorist, therefore, he saw oil coming from behind the front pulley. Thats a long way from the bearing cap. I would be looking at the pump housing. Great minds think alike @tw2005  :goodjob2::D
Theoretically, a piece of pump impeller breaking loose could explain the knocking sound and cracked housing.

 Surely $300 for a tube of FIPG is fair  :rolleyes: or is that the day rate for the apprentice who found this all too challenging.

To the original question on pulling the motor out, motor and box can come out the top using an engine hoist. Its tight but doable with the upper engine mounts removed.
BUT,at 96,000km the motor is still good for another 200,000km. Unless you are a left foot barbarian, the clutch will also have plenty of life.

My advice is to find a good oldtimer local mechanic who is experienced in all makes. Discuss the above points with him and repair the motor in the car. Never go near a dealer ex-warranty.




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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #10 : January 09, 2018, 20:34:06 »
2012 just out of warranty and under 100k.

Your dealer is much happier charging through the nose to change oil and sell stupidly priced add ons to the unaware (addatives, A/C treatments etc) to really want to do much they dont percieve they have to.

Ask around for a good honest mechanic who can work out what the issue is and fix it.

If you want to have some fun, seek some advice from the ACCC as to how long an engine can reasonably be expected to run without bleeding oil. Your rights in this area are law and above and beyond any warranty offered by Hyundai.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #11 : January 11, 2018, 20:19:05 »
Thank you for your suggestions and exploded views that you provided they have been most helpful.  Since my first request, as I was fearing the worse and thought I was going to have to replace the motor as I was getting messed around with the dealership.  The problem was that the car was with the dealership for just under a week and the diagnosis was the front crankshaft seal has been popping out and obviously is making a mess on their workshop floor. The dealership admitted to me that they did not install a sump gasket nor use any sealant as it was purely a front crankshaft seal problem.  Having replaced the front seal twice I decided to take the car from the dealership service centre.  Knowing that I was going to be losing oil as soon as I drove it from the dealership premises I went prepared with a 5 litre container of oil and funnel and started to travel to my motor mechanic.  After travelling 5 km I checked the oil level, topped it up then called for tow truck for the rest of the journey. On arrive at my mechanics premises and driving it 5 m to get it on to the hoist he could not believe the amount of oil that had been left behind. 

The diagnosis with the seal is that it appeared as though it was being pushed out by oil pressure.  Yesterday my mechanic thought that there could be a problem with a faulty oil filter or a heavier grade oil which the dealership had used?  The last seal, which the dealership installed, hadn't been damaged at all so it was cleaned up, along with the oil mess around the end of the sump.  The motor was filled up with the correct oil and a new filter installed.  The car ran for a couple of minutes with no leaks occurring.  There were a couple oil runs being detected from the set screws that go into the oil pump and there was evidence of no sealant being used on these two screws even though one or both are screwed into an oil way.  After using some sealant on these screws and starting the car up again the seal popped out again - the car was immediately shut down.

My mechanic this morning discovered, when installing the new seal, that he could use a pin punch to push the seal approximately 3 mm further into the front case recess unlike the previous time when the seal was flush with the timing case.  At the same time he disconnected the electronic oil sender and installed a capillary oil gauge and the pressure read 75 psi or 5 bar only a for short time as he didn't want to upset the ECU.

Question 1:  Now that we know the seal can go in an additional 3 mm is there a way to keep the seal in place to prevent it from popping out again?

Question 2:  Is the oil pressure noted above normal or too high?


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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #12 : January 11, 2018, 20:53:45 »
Im a bit short on time at the moment. Need to check on oil pressure, but it seems  to be too high, especially if this was taken at idle.  The system will have a pressure relief valve to overcome hi pre at hi revs.
Don't think the 3mm is relevant. Assume it is the correct seal, usually fit all the way into recess and is flush with the front.
@tw2005 may have time to do some reading.
Will look in later.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #13 : January 11, 2018, 21:04:50 »
Engine oil pressure at 1500 RPM
[Oil temperature is 90 to 110C 194 to 230F)]
 245KPa (2.5kg/cm, 35.5psi)
 

This is out of the FD series, assuming this is what yours is.

Only time I've ever had a seal come out was because it was so old it shrunk. they're usually fairly firm and need to be installed straight. I can't imagine the force required to push the whole seal out.

2142123020 , 37.6х49х7.5mm
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #14 : January 11, 2018, 21:27:24 »
Engine oil pressure at 1500 RPM
[Oil temperature is 90 to 110C 194 to 230F)]
 245KPa (2.5kg/cm, 35.5psi)
 

This is out of the FD series, assuming this is what yours is.

Only time I've ever had a seal come out was because it was so old it shrunk. they're usually fairly firm and need to be installed straight. I can't imagine the force required to push the whole seal out.

2142123020 , 37.6х49х7.5mm


 :goodjob2:
Thanks mate, just had a spare 5mins and it seems too high. Oil relief valve? As you indicate, why would it pop? can only be pressure.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #15 : January 12, 2018, 00:16:52 »
Hi Guys, Thanks for your valued input and, by the way, my mechanic is of the old school and thinks about the problem and just doesn't replace parts willy-nilly. 

While the oil pressure gauge was still in situ he could see that the relief valve was working and that why he thought the oil pressure stated was not out of the ordinary.  Either way the motor is a G4GC petrol motor.  When installing the latest seal he observed that there was a slight taper at the bottom of the seal hole which enables the seal to be inserted and then drifted all the way home.   Because of this he has assumed that the seal is all the way home he was under the impression that it was right into the tapered section and hence the correct pressure will be held on the seal OD.   Because of all of the oil that has been splashed in the area we are replacing the cam belt because it was soaked with oil.

Once you have confirmed what the oil pressure should be and I have heard back from you, my mechanic is going to reassembled everything and then gurney/Karcher underneath the whole car as there is oil from end-to-end.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #16 : January 12, 2018, 01:08:50 »
.......................................Once you have confirmed what the oil pressure should be and I have heard back from you, my mechanic is going to reassembled everything and then gurney/Karcher underneath the whole car as there is oil from end-to-end.

Who is you?  I've quoted straight from the manual already, over to your mechanic now. Surely he'll rectify this oil blowout issue first before any timing belt attempt
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #17 : January 12, 2018, 03:52:49 »
Yes it is an FD series.

Is there a way to decrease the pressure from the current 75 psi down to 35 psi?

In the past, and even now, the mechanic is use to working on A and B series BMC motors and to increase oil pressure you can put a spacer or stronger spring in the relief valve. So with that philosophy he is talking about dropping the sump to get to the relief valve to replace the relief valve altogether or can the spring pressure be tampered with?

Cam belt will be replaced when the original oil problem is rectified.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #18 : January 12, 2018, 04:58:16 »
Yes it is an FD series.

Is there a way to decrease the pressure from the current 75 psi down to 35 psi?

In the past, and even now, the mechanic is use to working on A and B series BMC motors and to increase oil pressure you can put a spacer or stronger spring in the relief valve. So with that philosophy he is talking about dropping the sump to get to the relief valve to replace the relief valve altogether or can the spring pressure be tampered with?

Cam belt will be replaced when the original oil problem is rectified.
those exploded views suggests that the relief valve is external of the sump and part of the pump.  As to any other mod that is out of my scope. 
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #19 : January 12, 2018, 05:39:26 »
Yes it is an FD series.

Is there a way to decrease the pressure from the current 75 psi down to 35 psi?

In the past, and even now, the mechanic is use to working on A and B series BMC motors and to increase oil pressure you can put a spacer or stronger spring in the relief valve. So with that philosophy he is talking about dropping the sump to get to the relief valve to replace the relief valve altogether or can the spring pressure be tampered with?

Cam belt will be replaced when the original oil problem is rectified.
those exploded views suggests that the relief valve is external of the sump and part of the pump.  As to any other mod that is out of my scope.

Sorry to tw for leaving him with this one, {mate :goodjob: } but little I can add to your reasoning. 
If the 1500 rpm pressure differs from  35 psi  ( higher) then your mechanic has to accept that this is the reason for previous oil loss AND PROBABLY the reason why the current oil seal has been forced 3mm forward..

MORE Below
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 17:21:18 by nzenigma » »
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #20 : January 12, 2018, 06:02:23 »
This is the whole pump assembly. And it's more apparent now to me at least that that front lip is forming part of the mating surface to the sump. So that's a bummer, hoped it was actually forward of the sump.



2131023002

about $160 delivered from Koraps in Korea

Relief spring    
2612335000

Relief plunger

2612235000

example , not actual items

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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #21 : January 12, 2018, 17:47:49 »
Not sure if you are aware of this @2xcatz , but this has potential.

@tw2005  was asking me if I had experienced excess crankcase pressure pushing seals out. This has been suggested by @crayman  thanks to him, it could solve your oil loss.
Personally, I have not had the problem but recently it was claimed that the rear crankshaft  seal in a BMW was popped out by a faulty positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve.  If blocked the valve can cause high crankcase pressure. Suggest your mechanic investigates this.
It is also suggested that your mechanic could have blocked drain holes behind the front seal when he pushed it back 3mm.
I note however, that the seal was correctly fitted flush with the front of the case when he got it but was still losing heaps of oil.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #22 : January 13, 2018, 17:44:16 »

More Musing  :confused: sorry.
Been sleeping on this one and have come back to suspect that oil pressure is causing the seal to pop.

The oil seal is at the front of , and is part of, the oil pump assembly; behind the pump is #1 main bearing. If the main was fractured, oil would simply dump down into the sump.

While you could argue that the oil seal forms part of the PCV system, it is called an oil seal and has had this function long before PCV was introduced in about the 1970s.

Excessive crankcase pressure cant be ruled out, but before looking for an oil seal that is being forced out of the engine by THIS pressure, I would be looking skyward searching for the oil dipstick.
The modern dipstick has a rubber seal at the top to maintain PCV. Problem PCV pressure can be spotted by simply pulling the stick up while the engine is running

While I was discussing this with @tw2005 , I said that I hadn't had this sort of problem. Sorry mate, I have been trying to forget that infamous diesel Navara. They have the same type of oil pump arrangement as does the i30. True to Navara form, one of the rotors in the pump fractured  and the workshop started to fill with new oil. It flowed straight past the seal that was still in situ.

We still don't know what the noise was that @2xcatz heard. Possibly nothing or.... something breaking in the pump??
So my best theory is this:, if a small piece of material (metal) was drawn into the oil pump and got wedged between the two concentric rotors, this would fracture one or both of them. However, they could remain in place and continue to operate, but some oil would be forced out against the seal.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #23 : January 13, 2018, 19:20:10 »
Thanks for the info on price pump assembly shipped from Korea. 

As time is against me are you able to give me an approximate price if locally sourced for the pump assembly?

You guys are obviously part of the Hyundai organisation or just dead keen enthusiasts and am once again thankful for all of the information that you've been providing.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #24 : January 13, 2018, 19:40:23 »
Thanks for the info on price pump assembly shipped from Korea. 

As time is against me are you able to give me an approximate price if locally sourced for the pump assembly?

You guys are obviously part of the Hyundai organisation or just dead keen enthusiasts and am once again thankful for all of the information that you've been providing.
Keen Enthusist borderline OCD.  So no, can't help with local  but expect a rude shock. Even aftermarket I find they price themselves to OEM pricing. I've learnt over time to use the web very successfully, downside is if you need it today/tomorrow offshore is an issue.
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #25 : January 13, 2018, 19:47:21 »
Oh, one of the reasons I put that image of the pump up. It's OEM original and it includes the front seal factory fitted . Not bad as a reference on how deep it sits which to me looks like it's flush to the outer surface or very close to that.

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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #26 : January 13, 2018, 20:19:25 »
Just doing some youtubing. Just found something which I have not viewed yet but sounding familiar.

@nzenigma @2xcatz @crayman

Just checked on Crayman's PM which mentioned end float. The video is of a 2011 Elantra Touring (AKA in this instance i30CW, Petrol G4GC 2.0L manual) with popping seal and worn out thrust bearings. There are 3 parts.

In it he states 2011 model purchased in 2012 with 25000k, at about 90000k it blew a seal and dumped it's oil.

also refers to it as mainseal but all the imagery and what he mentions suggests actually front crank seal. Also being a manual I'd expect everytime the clutch is depresed if this has gone and there is end float the crank would be moving forward with every gear change.

First seal replacement lasted 3 hours(sound familiar)

Second attempt by Hyundai dealer lasted a little longer.

Second trip to dealer apparantly diagnosis is front thrust bearing gone and dropped into sump.
He also challenges Hyundai for warranty repair.

I'd be documenting everything because if I had something with this mileage, and if serviced correctly etc etc I'd be requesting out warranty assistance. That's my opinion if this is the case.

There are  some other comments too under the youtubes.

Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:



« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 21:09:00 by tw2005 » »
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #27 : January 13, 2018, 20:48:26 »
Uh oh  :faint:

:link: thrust washer/bearing

Let's not forget too they said they replaced the sump gasket and charged for it! Right. . So what if the thrust bearing has also landed in this sump?

Of course that would be detected by the sump removal by the dealer? Just throwing some controversy out there.

What does the paperwork state?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 21:05:14 by tw2005 » »
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #28 : January 13, 2018, 23:22:34 »




End play should be no more than 10 thou
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Re: i30 motor removal
« Reply #29 : January 14, 2018, 02:51:30 »
You guys are obviously part of the Hyundai organisation :whistler:
Keen Enthusist borderline OCD.  So no, can't help with local  but expect a rude shock. Even aftermarket I find they price themselves to OEM pricing. I've learnt over time to use the web very successfully, downside is if you need it today/tomorrow offshore is an issue.

Good answer mate don't dob in  the wealthy brothers  Dazz and Shambles Hyundai until  we get our  techo fees



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