[Krieger]

Hello everyone, great forum and here is my first post.

I’ve been driving the new car for over a month now and I have not seen the Forward Collision Warning messages or chimes, with the exception of the “Emergency Braking” message and chime on two occasions when the brakes kicked in.
To avoid confusion, I’m not talking about the emergency braking, I’m referring to the messages and chimes for “Forward Warning (1st warning)” and “Collision Warning (2nd warning)” as described in the owner’s manual (attached screenshot). The warning messages are collectively known as Forward Collision Warning (FCW) on Hyundai’s website, but in the owner’s manual the messages come under the Autonomous Emergency Braking (AEB) section. Everything else works as it should, including the Lane Keeping Assist System and Smart Cruise Control which use the camera and front radar respectively. This to me hints at a possible software issue.

I have tested this at different speeds to the point where I have to hard break to come to a stop right behind the car in front, I’ve also tested with different initial warning activation time options (EARLY, NORMAL, LATE). I have raised it with the dealer, they ran a diagnostic during the first month servicing and didn’t find anything. I didn’t agree with their(mechanic/attendant) reasoning on the matter and I’m currently waiting for their response.

Has anyone with a i30 PD DCT seen any of the Forward Collision Warning messages?

[Dazzler]

Welcome Krieger,

I have the same model. I had a problem with my blind spot monitoring which required the software to be reloaded over a week ago, it hasn't recurred. Like you say everything else seems to work as it is supposed to.  As far as the collision avoidance warning is concerned,  I must admit it hasn't been activated to my knowledge since I've had the car (nearly 4 months) although to be honest, after having up to 3 or 4 false alarms per day with the FCA in my previous Calais can't say I miss that.

[Krieger]

Thanks Dazzler. I read your post about the blind spot monitoring problem, and the reloading of software is something I might bring up with them depending on the response I get.
I’ve never owned or driven a car with forward collision warning/alert system, so this is all new to me, but what you describe of how FCA worked on you Calais is how I imagine it is supposed to work with the initial collision warning set to EARLY at least.

[Dazzler]

Thanks Dazzler. I read your post about the blind spot monitoring problem, and the reloading of software is something I might bring up with them depending on the response I get.
I’ve never owned or driven a car with forward collision warning/alert system, so this is all new to me, but what you describe of how FCA worked on you Calais is how I imagine it is supposed to work with the initial collision warning set to EARLY at least.

I just assume this one is cleverer than the Holden. The calibration of the Automated cruise seems very good. With the Calais if you were driving on a curved road with cars parked on the outside of the curve the FCA sort of panicked that you were going to run up the bum of the parked cars. I used to say rather have it set to early than late, but in hindsight it was a pain some days.

[Crustycottage]

I have same model and have issues with smart cruise control not always working, and no warnings whatsoever with FCW. I have very nearly crashed at 100 kms into the car in front that has either slowed to a crawl on freeway or simply stopped, On initial 1500 km check the useless dealer stated no faults, and I need to read to manual.

 I think I said in earlier posts I would like to see constant visual dash system to let u know Safety systems are all working correctly like showing a brake symbol to indicate system is applying the brakes and you not left pondering is it going to slow down or stop before impact. If it is not functioning correctly, just disengage cruise completely so at least u know something is dodgy

It does add an element of excitement to morning commute, but one I could do without To be honest, the smell of fear from my undies, doesn't smell too good with the leather. 

[fabulatuaest]

Have seen the 3rd warning, and definitely didn't plan on seeing it... And yes, car braked as well. Main issue for me is LKAS - doesn't seem to pick up the lane markings around the city.

[Dazzler]

Have seen the 3rd warning, and definitely didn't plan on seeing it... And yes, car braked as well. Main issue for me is LKAS - doesn't seem to pick up the lane markings around the city.

I think that would be a speed related thing. Only meant to work over a certain speed.

[nzenigma]

I have same model and have issues with smart cruise control not always working, and no warnings whatsoever with FCW. I have very nearly crashed at 100 kms into the car in front that has either slowed to a crawl on freeway or simply stopped, On initial 1500 km check the useless dealer stated no faults, and I need to read to manual.
 

The driverless car will solve all these problems. Cant Wait!! 

[Lakes]

what can I say  .
I'll make sure no new i30 following me in Sydney , testing out there warning system on my tail!!

[nzenigma]

The driverless car will solve all these problems. Cant Wait!!   

m8
The driverless BIKE will solve your problem. Cant Wait!! 

[Lakes]

don't think that will happen, but who know's.

[Krieger]

So I’ve put this on hold for now, I’ve grown tired of chasing them and I’ve got more important things to focus on at the moment. I did take the car to the service centre for them to have another look, they’ve essentially said there’s nothing wrong with it. After seeing the job report it just seems to me they are not taking this serious at all, the report simply does not reflect what I told them the issue was, both in writing and face to face with the mechanic. I might come back to this sometime in the future, it is 5 years of warranty after all.

The workshop gave me a 2 page printout with a bit more information of how the AEB system works, I’ve scanned it and I’m sharing it here for anyone who is interested.

[Dazzler]

Thanks for the update and sharing that document. I'm going to print that out and have a read. 

[Mark70]

I have same model and have issues with smart cruise control not always working, and no warnings whatsoever with FCW. I have very nearly crashed at 100 km/h into the car in front that has either slowed to a crawl on freeway or simply stopped, On initial 1500 km check the useless dealer stated no faults, and I need to read to manual.
 I think I said in earlier posts I would like to see constant visual dash system to let u know Safety systems are all working correctly like showing a brake symbol to indicate system is applying the brakes and you not left pondering is it going to slow down or stop before impact. If it is not functioning correctly, just disengage cruise completely so at least u know something is dodgy
It does add an element of excitement to morning commute, but one I could do without To be honest, the smell of fear from my undies, doesn't smell too good with the leather.

I certainly have to agree, some kind of indication that the brakes are being applied, such as a brake light visible to the driver, would be very helpful in this car.

Responding to your "nearly crashed at 100 kms into the car in front":
The smart cruise control (SCC) is designed to FOLLOW another car at a set distance of time.
If your car is actively following the car in front (leading car icon appears on your display and your speed is already matched) and this car then slows down and stops from 100 to 0, then the SCC will also do the same to your car and come to a stop behind the stopped car.
YES there are limits to how hard the SCC can apply the brakes in the above circumstances, and if the required braking is calculated to me more than it can apply, then it will BEEP and display a warning message for you to help with applying the breaks harder.

The Radar is designed to only detect MOVING vehicles, since everything that is stationary is normally "ground clutter" and so gets filtered by the radar electronics, so that the decision processor only has to consider moving objects.
What SCC cannot do therefore, is see a slow or stopped car on the freeway if you are NOT actively following it.
So the sudden appearance of a stopped car, at 100KM/h, and then somehow breaking is not what SCC is designed for.
Although AEB might apply the brakes and reduce the impact speed, it also can't prevent the crash.
This situation is one of the documented weaknesses of this driver assistance technology.

A particularly nasty variation of this "weakness" occurs when you're following a lead car on a multi lane carriageway using SCC, and the lead car suddenly changes into another lane because there is a stopped car in the original lane.  Your car won't detect the stationary vehicle now suddenly ahead of you (because it's stationary and radar works best detecting moving vehicles) so will happily just crash into it.  If the driver doesn't react, the AEB might reduce the impact by a few % and the seatbelts and airbags will do the rest to save the lives of your vehicle's occupants.

It's worth mentioning that the AEB is something which cannot and should not be tested in practice, since it will only activate in the extreme circumstances immediately preceding an actual collision.
Simply applying the brakes very late and coming to a hard stop behind another car will not be enough to trigger it.
The safest way to do an AEB test might be to get a blow-up doll, put it upright in the middle of a closed street, then drive at it at 60km/h...

The attached document also mentions that AEB auto cancels if it detects driver input, including steering.  Maybe if you've been trying to test it, you've also been inadvertently cancelling it because you were still driving?


SCC:
4 bars shown is 2.1 second gap.
3 bars shown is a 1.6 second gap.
2 bars shown is a 1.3 second gap.
1 bar  shown is a 1 second gap.

[Dazzler]

Thanks Mark. That's how I look at my Active cruise and AEB.

To me it is just an additional convenience/safety feature that reduces the risk of a collision if used correctly.

[Crustycottage]

The Radar is designed to only detect MOVING vehicles, since everything that is stationary is normally "ground clutter" and so gets filtered by the radar electronics, so that the decision processor only has to consider moving objects.
What SCC cannot do therefore, is see a slow or stopped car on the freeway if you are NOT actively following it.
So the sudden appearance of a stopped car, at 100KM/h, and then somehow breaking is not what SCC is designed for.
Although AEB might apply the brakes and reduce the impact speed, it also can't prevent the crash.
This situation is one of the documented weaknesses of this driver assistance technology.

A particularly nasty variation of this "weakness" occurs when you're following a lead car on a multi lane carriageway using SCC, and the lead car suddenly changes into another lane because there is a stopped car in the original lane.  Your car won't detect the stationary vehicle now suddenly ahead of you (because it's stationary and radar works best detecting moving vehicles) so will happily just crash into it.  If the driver doesn't react, the AEB might reduce the impact by a few % and the seatbelts and airbags will do the rest to save the lives of your vehicle's occupants.

That would make sense as I usually have SCC minimum 1 bar gap set to reduce gap to the car in front as on Perth freeways there will suddenly be 3 or 4 cars pulled into the aforementioned 4 bar gap, and with constant braking makes you feel like you are going backwards. So when a car in front slows or stops after I have matched it's speed for a few kms, the radar is losing track of it, and or not seeing it altogether. 

It does seem worse when a larger gap opens up like 100m between me and the car in front as they speed away. The SCC dash usually indicates when the radar senses a car in front.  It occasionally happens on 60km roads too when car in front slows or stops. 

Many thanks for the info, I know i shouldn't trust SCC like I have been, but you want to try out the new toys.
More warnings on the dash display for SCC would also benefit everyone, more sophisticated radar & laser system, filtering ground clutter     
I will probably just set Smart CC to Normal cruise control, set the speed and if car in front slows, you brake too and cruise control disengages. its just bit too dangerous for me in its current state of development. 

[Dazzler]

@Crustycottage Or move to Tasmania.  Works brilliantly down here, but seldom have the traffic conditions you describe except in parts of Hobart. 

I find it reduces my fatigue levels considerably on long trips. I think it makes me more aware of other traffic and I am ready to over-ride it if I see a potential problem arising.

[Mark70]

That would make sense as I usually have SCC minimum 1 bar gap set to reduce gap to the car in front as on Perth freeways there will suddenly be 3 or 4 cars pulled into the aforementioned 4 bar gap, and with constant braking makes you feel like you are going backwards. So when a car in front slows or stops after I have matched it's speed for a few kms, the radar is losing track of it, and or not seeing it altogether. 

Are you saying that when your SCC is following the car in front with the 1 second gap, and the front car slows down, yours doesn't?
Please try the 2.1 second gap for a bit and see if this increased distance enables your car to stop correctly.

constant braking

We definitely need some kind of indication light for this, so we know whether our car is applying the breaks...

Many thanks for the info, I know i shouldn't trust SCC like I have been, but you want to try out the new toys.
More warnings on the dash display for SCC would also benefit everyone, more sophisticated radar & laser system, filtering ground clutter     
I will probably just set Smart CC to Normal cruise control, set the speed and if car in front slows, you brake too and cruise control disengages. its just bit too dangerous for me in its current state of development. 

Please let me know if you're able to switch from SCC to normal CC as per the manual.
It says if you hold the distance-bar-adjuster button for 4 seconds it toggles between SCC and normal CC, but I've tried this and it doesn't switch, SCC-only seems to be how my car wants to roll.

[beerman]

The Radar is designed to only detect MOVING vehicles, since everything that is stationary is normally "ground clutter" and so gets filtered by the radar electronics, so that the decision processor only has to consider moving objects.
What SCC cannot do therefore, is see a slow or stopped car on the freeway if you are NOT actively following it.
So the sudden appearance of a stopped car, at 100KM/h, and then somehow breaking is not what SCC is designed for.
Although AEB might apply the brakes and reduce the impact speed, it also can't prevent the crash.
This situation is one of the documented weaknesses of this driver assistance technology.

A particularly nasty variation of this "weakness" occurs when you're following a lead car on a multi lane carriageway using SCC, and the lead car suddenly changes into another lane because there is a stopped car in the original lane.  Your car won't detect the stationary vehicle now suddenly ahead of you (because it's stationary and radar works best detecting moving vehicles) so will happily just crash into it.  If the driver doesn't react, the AEB might reduce the impact by a few % and the seatbelts and airbags will do the rest to save the lives of your vehicle's occupants.

That would make sense as I usually have SCC minimum 1 bar gap set to reduce gap to the car in front as on Perth freeways there will suddenly be 3 or 4 cars pulled into the aforementioned 4 bar gap, and with constant braking makes you feel like you are going backwards. So when a car in front slows or stops after I have matched it's speed for a few kms, the radar is losing track of it, and or not seeing it altogether. 

If I read correctly one bar gap = 1 second gap, you really need to follow a vehicle with a 2 second gap to allow for reaction time.

I wonder if all this Wiz bang technology has the same effect that ABS had all those years ago. There was a study where drivers were told they had ABS in a vehicle and drivers were given a vehicle with ABS and not told. Despite the different system of braking required to effectively use ABS can you guess which vehicles had less accidents......That's right the vehicles that were fitted with ABS and the drivers not told. Seems that the drivers that were told they had ABS cars drove more aggressively and relied too much on the technology.....

[Crustycottage]

Quote from: Crustycottage on October 24, 2017, 00:42:51
That would make sense as I usually have SCC minimum 1 bar gap set to reduce gap to the car in front as on Perth freeways there will suddenly be 3 or 4 cars pulled into the aforementioned 4 bar gap, and with constant braking makes you feel like you are going backwards. So when a car in front slows or stops after I have matched it's speed for a few kms, the radar is losing track of it, and or not seeing it altogether. 
Are you saying that when your SCC is following the car in front with the 1 second gap, and the front car slows down, yours doesn't?
Please try the 2.1 second gap for a bit and see if this increased distance enables your car to stop correctly.

Yes if I lose the car in front eg Im sat 100kmh they speed off into the distance over 100-150m gap opens up between me and them, then they slow down again to 5-10kmh or stop as they hit traffic congestion SCC radar does not see them or indicate a car symbol on dash SCC. Also as you pointed out in earlier reply if the car swap lanes and there is a stopped or slowing car, SCC does not seem them. These conditions are typical for Perth drivers on freeways with people swapping lanes to make time, sat in fast lane at 80kmh. The Perth 2 second gap rule means space for 3 extra cars. i will try 2 second gap to see if it extends the radar sensing range

Quote
constant braking

We definitely need some kind of indication light for this, so we know whether our car is applying the breaks...

totally agree i have noticed too that following drivers in my rear view mirror are surprised & getting angry as SCC maintains my set speed e.g 80kmh with braking for no apparent reason, and that i am brake testing them. This is not me hogging the fast lane but on exit ramps etc

Quote
Many thanks for the info, I know i shouldn't trust SCC like I have been, but you want to try out the new toys.
More warnings on the dash display for SCC would also benefit everyone, more sophisticated radar & laser system, filtering ground clutter     
I will probably just set Smart CC to Normal cruise control, set the speed and if car in front slows, you brake too and cruise control disengages. its just bit too dangerous for me in its current state of development. 

Please let me know if you're able to switch from SCC to normal CC as per the manual.
It says if you hold the distance-bar-adjuster button for 4 seconds it toggles between SCC and normal CC, but I've tried this and it doesn't switch, SCC-only seems to be how my car wants to roll.

yes it works as manual but you have to be stationary, i was sat on driveway,

[Crustycottage]

If I read correctly one bar gap = 1 second gap, you really need to follow a vehicle with a 2 second gap to allow for reaction time.

I wonder if all this Wiz bang technology has the same effect that ABS had all those years ago. There was a study where drivers were told they had ABS in a vehicle and drivers were given a vehicle with ABS and not told. Despite the different system of braking required to effectively use ABS can you guess which vehicles had less accidents......That's right the vehicles that were fitted with ABS and the drivers not told. Seems that the drivers that were told they had ABS cars drove more aggressively and relied too much on the technology.....

I totally agree. but if you add safety driver aid technology it must work properly or not at all.

[Mark70]

If I read correctly one bar gap = 1 second gap, you really need to follow a vehicle with a 2 second gap to allow for reaction time.

Something tells me we should have started several new threads...all these topics!
What you say is perfectly true, the 2 second gap is even mentioned in many driving guidelines.
When using SCC, it's the car that is fully controlling the speed and breaking, thereby removing the reaction time of the human driver from the equation almost entirely.
Thus, given that the car s controlling the speed and breaking, a 1 second gap becomes do-able reasonably safely.
If you observe drivers generally, you will see that most tend to drive with about a 1 second gap or less, naturally.
They do this on country freeways, city freeways, even normal roads.
As mentioned above, leaving a 2.1 second gap at 100km/h is 58.3 meters.
If a car is 5 meters long, that's over 11 car lengths!
In practice that's such a huge and stable gap, that a B-Double semi trailer has plenty of space to comfortably move into it.
The official length of a road train is 53m, so one of these could also move into the front of your car without the need for you to slow down.
Or even a pack of 3 cars doing their 1-second gap thing.
The car lets us only choose between 1, 1.3,  1.6 and 2.1 second gap options, and 2.1 is a very long distance indeed.
I prefer to drive with the gap at 2.1 seconds (4 bars), since it allows the LKAS to see long lines and keep an accurate lock on the middle of my lane for me.
It's actually the driver following behind you with their 1 second gap and no tech that I tend to worry most about.

[beerman]

The point of the gap is to also allow you to allow for the driver behind if I have someone who is too close, my distance gets bigger, because I now have to allow distance to brake for them too. A computer can't do this at this point.

I look at the technology, like ABS and stability control as an aid to the driver, to allow for human failings if you will. In an emergency situation most jam on the brake, it is only the truly excellent driver who can control braking to stop the wheels from locking, hence ABS does this for you. Many can't control a car when it starts to lose traction, hence a computer can help. Both are aids to the driver and can't and wont fix everything (For example ABS gives the driver control over the car to steer, the driver still needs to use the ability and not fixate on the object about to be hit). Here the FCW is an aid to the driver, a last line of defence against you being distracted by that hot blonde when you should be watching the road in front.

In the situation you outline, a one second gap is reasonable in a situation where everything is computer controlled, and the human failings of distraction are removed. Driving is more than the car in front (infact the car in front sould not be your focus) you should be looking down the road to what is coming up.

[nzenigma]

If I read correctly one bar gap = 1 second gap, you really need to follow a vehicle with a 2 second gap to allow for reaction time.

I wonder if all this Wiz bang technology has the same effect that ABS had all those years ago. There was a study where drivers were told they had ABS in a vehicle and drivers were given a vehicle with ABS and not told. Despite the different system of braking required to effectively use ABS can you guess which vehicles had less accidents......That's right the vehicles that were fitted with ABS and the drivers not told. Seems that the drivers that were told they had ABS cars drove more aggressively and relied too much on the technology.....

This is an interesting discussion.
 I get the sense that Beerman is like me and prefers to use his own skill and wit to drive, (eg. watching further ahead and also the following traffic), rather than rely upon this new fallible technology.
Further to your point about driver complacency , the road design manual requires allowance for a 2 second driver reaction time, this decreases in city driving, but extends to 2.5 sec when driving in the more relaxing county side.

[Dazzler]

Here the FCW is an aid to the driver, a last line of defence against you being distracted by that hot blonde when you should be watching the road in front.

$hit, mine is going to be worn out in no time! 

[Mark70]

The point of the gap is to also allow you to allow for the driver behind if I have someone who is too close, my distance gets bigger, because I now have to allow distance to brake for them too. A computer can't do this at this point.

You are absolutely correct. 
There is a huge amount of psychology involved with driving.
I find that if I leave a 2.1 second gap (by having my SCC set to 4 bars), then the people behind me also leave a similar gap as well.
If I adjust/reduce the gap to 1 second (one bar), then within a few minutes the people behind me get closer too.
I certainly prefer driving (especially on country freeways) with the 2.1 second gap, since at that distance you have so much time you can end your phone call, turn off the music, and even avoid becoming part of the pile-up you see still 80 meters ahead...   

[Mark70]

yes it works as manual but you have to be stationary, i was sat on driveway,

Thanks, with your tip I was able to put my car into PARK, electronic park brake ON, and then turn the Cruise Control on, and only then could I long-press the distance button to toggle between SCC and traditional CC successfully.

[nzenigma]

I certainly prefer driving (especially on country freeways) with the 2.1 second gap, since at that distance you have so much time you can end your phone call, turn off the music, and even avoid becoming part of the pile-up you see still 80 meters ahead...   

  Correct me if I'm wrong, but presumably you are exceeding 80k, therefore you only have a warning signal, hence human reaction time becomes a major factor. At 90kph you need 130 meters of clear sight (approaching an intersection) on flat dry road and 83 meters to stop in the dry.

[Mark70]

I certainly prefer driving (especially on country freeways) with the 2.1 second gap, since at that distance you have so much time you can end your phone call, turn off the music, and even avoid becoming part of the pile-up you see still 80 meters ahead...   

  Correct me if I'm wrong, but presumably you are exceeding 80k, therefore you only have a warning signal, hence human reaction time becomes a major factor. At 90kph you need 130 meters of clear sight (approaching an intersection) on flat dry road and 83 meters to stop in the dry.

I confess that my math was worse than sloppy, it wasn't done at all, so that "80m" distance thing was merely my attempt at humor.
Now that I'm paying attention, leaving a 2.1 second gap at 110km/h puts you 64.2 meters away from the car in front, which itself is also moving at 110kmh since you're following it at a computer-controlled fixed distance using the radar cruise control.
If that vehicle changes its speed, either a little (slows down to 80km/h), or a lot (slows down to a complete stop), the Hyundai SCC will do the same, since it's will continue to maintain that 2.1 second gap.
The SCC system can and does use the breaks to slow the car down.  Unlike older cruise control systems which purely control engine throttle, the Hyundai SCC also controls the breaks as well. 
I therefore propose that human reaction time of the person driving the Hyundai is mostly removed from the process.
Although the human reaction time of other cars (such as the one following behind you) is still very relevant.
 

[nzenigma]

Thanks for that Mark. Im not trying to trap you, it was more the mention of the [stationary] pile up.
Recently I had an issue with our local council who has accepted dodgy engineering advise about a new 'country road'  'T' intersection.
The clear sight for approaching cars doing 70-80km and also cars exiting, ranges from 125metres ( best conditions) to as little as 30metres during summer ( due to long grass).
Given that scenario, how comfortable are you with your SCC?