[DarraghR]

I recently bought a second hand 2010 1.4 i30 and 2 weeks later I am experiencing a concerning issue. Below are the symptoms that I am having.

Car wont start on first try roughly 1 out of 12 times
ESP OFF light displayed on dash display and only clears when car is started up again.
Rev counter does not move even when I press on the accelerator
Car seems to be revving itself when ESP OFF light is no with non functioning rev counter
Signs that car has slightly lower power or acceleration than expected

I have read a lot of posts regarding similar symptoms but non mentioned the car revving itself. I have compiled a list of faults below gathered from other posts.

Battery fault
Crank shaft sensor
Tyre pressure (My back right tyre looks a little down compared to the rest but my symptoms wouldn't result in this being the fault... would it?
Electrics under steering wheel
Sensor in steering wheel
Steering angle sensor
Faulty break light switch
Break Sensor
Bulbs need to be changed

That is quite a list of possibilities. I have also read that i30's between 2009 - 2010 have had recalls with this issue but my car is well out of the 5 year warranty.

I bought a bluetooth OBD diagnostics Torque Pro ELM 327 for checking fault codes. Can anyone recommend the best app to buy for my android phone.

[CraigB]

I cant comment on your problems though regarding the Torque Pro device you purchased, don't you have to use the Torque Pro application to connect with it  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&hl=en

[DarraghR]

There are other apps available. I ended up buying the Torque Pro app

[eye30]

As only 2 weeks since bought i presume still under a warranty, unless private purchase.

With that list of issues and bought from dealer, take it back and get them to sort or request money back... As unfit for purpose.....

[tw2005]

So what are the scan tool results? If you can see live data, is throtle % shown? What's that doing?

although crank sensor comes to mind I'm wondering about throttle position sensor.

We don't get the 1.4 petrol here which appears to be a cable operated throttle body. is that correct?

I think with a dead Tacho crank sensor is probably on the money.

Gary @nzenigma may have some tips he sees a broader range of i30s

[Dazzler]

Welcome DarraghR,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. IF it is the ESP light (Electronic Stability Program) not the EPS (Electronic Power Steering) then I would discount anything steering related (except) possibly the immobilizer in the steering lock/key mechanism.

I'd certainly check that tyre pressures of all tyres because to look down, it would have to be quite low, but again, nothing to do with the other issue in my opinion.

I doubt very much if the bulbs could cause it either. So that narrows it down a lot.

We didn't get the 1.4 petrol in Australia (in the i30) although I think it would be essentially the same engine as used in the Getz.

Gerard (tw2005) beat me to the draw.. I'll leave you in his capable hands. Him and Gary are the bees knees as far as mechanicals are concerned.

[nzenigma]

From your first post it seems cart before horse. Will come back after Dazz.

[nzenigma]

From your first post it seems cart before horse. Will come back after Dazz.

As Dazz has said the ESP light is not the problem.
Many of your warning lights will show until the engine is functioning.
Your explanation confuses me a bit.
Your main problem is bad starting and even when engine is running the tachometer remains on 0. Is that correct?
When the engine is running, you press the accelerator and see 0 revs. Is that correct?
Are you sure the engine is running?
 
Your remedies:

Tyre pressure (My back right tyre l
Electrics under steering wheel
Sensor in steering wheel
Steering angle sensor
Faulty BRAKE light switch
BRAKE Sensor
Bulbs need to be changed

These have nothing to do with engine starting, some may cause ESP light to show.
 Ignore ESP except as an indicator in the following.
If your battery connection is poor, you will have hard/intermittent starting.
If Battery has been disconnected the ESP will be off when you get motor running. ESP will reset itself.

[DarraghR]

Hi guys. Sorry for the late reply and thank you for all of the advice given.

I changed the brake light bulb and inflated the tire which had a missing valve cap which I also replaced. Neither fixed the problem.

@nzenigma
"Your main problem is bad starting and even when engine is running the tachometer remains on 0. Is that correct?
When the engine is running, you press the accelerator and see 0 revs. Is that correct?
Are you sure the engine is running"

Roughly 15% of the time when the car starts up with the ESP OFF light the rev needle wont move even when accelerating. Yes the engine is defiantly running.

So one thing I forgot to mention was that one of the two keys I got with the car was apparently put into a laundry wash by accident. It also has no markings on the buttons which I thought would explain it. I then used the other key only for 4 or so days without any issues. After a long 1hr drive on a motorway I stopped at a garage for petrol very close to my destination. Tried to start the car and the problem was apparent again. That was 3 days ago and once again no sign of the issue. Very random.

Today I decided to bring it for a diagnostics scan. The tool they used was valued at €5000 so was happy enough to part ways with €30 for the scan. 5 codes were found under the categories ABS ISO (1), ABS ISO (2) and Air Bag (ISO)

C1623 + C1611 + C1260
B1102 + B2500

The mechanic said this is most likely due to the steering angle sensor. A replacement would have to be gotten from a dealer apparently. So if this is the problem how much could I be looking at for repairing it? He said it shouldn't cause any harm to the car but I think differently and would prefer to get it fixed once and for all.

Here is a link for photos taken of the diagnostics results - Diagnostics results

Would this fault fall under a recall as mentioned in this link? - i30 Recalls

[nzenigma]

@DarraghR   Quick reply mate, I see you are still there.

If it is the sensor it is embedded in the steering column, you are going to die when you get a quote from dealer, not a recall item. Easiest & cheapest is to get another column from a wrecker, not a big job, basically DIY, then get the steering centered with scanner = 5mins.

But first,

Let me come back to you later once Ive looked at the codes and had a think. Cheers.

[tw2005]

@nzenigma , quick paste from GDS

B1102 Battery Voltage Low - SRSCM (Supplemental Restraints System Control Module) checks input voltage when "IG ON" to make air bag system work properly.
If input voltage is out of normal range, there can be malfunction in system operation. In this case, Check battery and charging system.
The SRSCM sets DTC B1102 and turns warning light on if voltage below threshold value is detected for more than 4 sec. (If voltage within threshold value is detected for 4 sec. SRSCM regards DTC as being cleared and turns warning light off).

B2500 Warning lamp Failure -  Air bag warning lamp is located at cluster
When key is in 'ignition on' position, SRSCM performs diagnosis of overall air bag system.If there's no fault, air bag.
Warning lamp in cluster flickers for a whlie and then goes out.
SRSCM measures voltage of out terminal of warning lamp to check if warnning lamp is operated in accordance with signal SRSCM sends.

DTC Description

The SRSCM sets DTC B2500 if there is an open circuit or short to ground in air bag circuit harness.

C1260 - Brake ABS/ESP > C1260 Steering Angle Sensor Circuit-Signal

The Steering angle sensor(SAS) is installed in MDPS (Motor Driven Power Steering) and it sends messages to HECU through CAN communication line.
The SAS is used to determine turning direction and speed of the steering wheel.
The HECU uses the signals from the SAS when performing ESP-related calculations.
DTC Description

If the SAS signal is different from calculated value by yaw-rate sensor and wheel speed sensor, mechanically impossible SAS signal is detected, there is a difference between SAS signal and driving condition of the vehicle calculated from yaw-rate sensor and lateral G sensor, a failure is detected.

•  Short of steering angle sensor circuit 
•  Faulty steerin g angle sensor


C1611 - Steering Electronic Power Steering > C1611 CAN Time-out ECM

EPS provides a different assist force according to vehicle speed when engine ON. EPS CM receives engine condition and vehicle speed from ECM as EMS1 signal.
DTC Description

EPS CM sets this code if EMS1 message is not received within predefined time.

  Open or short in CAN harness of engine side
•  Faulty ECM



C1623 - Brake ABS/ESP > C1623 CAN Time-out Steering Angle Sensor

The Steering angle sensor(SAS) is installed in MDPS (Motor Driven Power Steering) and it sends messages to HECU through CAN communication line.
The SAS is used to determine turning direction and speed of the steering wheel.
The HECU uses the signals from the SAS when performing ESP-related calculations.
DTC Description

The HECU checks the CAN communcation lines for normal ESP control, and sets this code if an SAS message is not received within predefined time

     Faulty SAS
•  Open circuit in SAS line

[nzenigma]

Thanks mate.

should keep us busy.

I'll have breakfast first if you dont mind. 
 @tw2005
added: Im concerned about NO RPM what is the connection with sensor?

seems more like a CAN line glitch

now coffee 

[tw2005]

Thanks mate.

should keep us busy.

I'll have breakfast first if you dont mind. 

Multi-task- Spoon in, eat, type, spoon in ,eat, type

[nzenigma]

Ok putting this forward without looking at other opinions. ( not trying to rude tw2005, et al. just focusing on some issues) 

Keys in the wash wont be the problem but thanks for mentioning it.

I have had many issues with misaligned SAS causing ESP and EPS warning lights to show. If any, there would only be one code, certainly not 5.  While I have not yet had a failed SAS sensor I imagine the same scenario.
I note that EPS (power steering) light is NOT on in Darragh's car.  WHY?

Not knocking the mechanics, but they haven't addressed TWO factors:

1. The intermittent engine failure to start. Sensor will have no bearing on this.

2. The intermittent Tacho failure. None of the codes directly indicate loss of RPM signal.
But all the  named functions require knowledge of the vehicle's speed to operate correctly.
Including restraints and air bags.

Are there old codes here that should have been cleared?
eg, If we have a steering (SAS) faulty sensor, how does that link to B1102 low battery voltage?

If B1102 is relevant, perhaps as I said in an earlier answer, this may be a battery connection problem which should have been better expressed ' the +12v supply (or earth) to some unit is dirty or corroded and intermittent'.

My conclusion #1 
All codes are relevant.
RPM loss is crucial.
Start failure is crucial
Steer sensor is NOT faulty.
Probably fault is ECM/ECU related, RPM data comes from here. Check plugs and line to and from this unit.

[Dazzler]

Awesome guys for all your efforts so far! 

[DarraghR]

Right so I had a look at the battery and noticed the plastic protector for the positive side was not fully clipped in. This is due to the battery handle getting in the way. I could remove the battery handle but would this actually be the cause of my problems? I have pictures uploaded as someone might notice something I haven't - Battery Pictures
 
Just a few hours ago I experienced issues again starting the engine and it seemed worse than ever. My dashboard lights now contain an engine warning light, Parking Brake and Brake Fluid Warning Light, battery, EPS, brake and oil! So yes now I have the EPS light on which I did not previously. First 2 pictures pictures are my original dash lights with ESP OFF and the next 2 are my new issue with EPS - Dash Lights

Would messing with the battery + cap protector have triggered these new warnings and should I disconnect the battery for a half hour or so?

@nzenigma "Probably fault is ECM/ECU related, RPM data comes from here. Check plugs and line to and from this unit." Would this be underneath the steering wheel and passenger side of dash?

[nzenigma]

This should be similar to your 1.4 motor. The metal box ( ECU/ECM) is the brain that runs your car. It receives and sends the RPM data.
I was looking at the 'stuff'  on your battery, it is possible that you have corrosion on some electrical connection.
The ECU has two plugs on top. Need contact cleaner.
I dont think the handle of battery etc is your problem, but you have been dicking around in that area so a simultaneous change on the dash and starting is VERY likely to be associated.
Check fuses. Thats the only stuff under the dash to think about.
If you have momentary disconnected power (+ve or earth) ESP and EPS lights will come on. They will reset and go out after a short drive with turns.
Given the muck, give the earth straps serious attention.

NOTE THE EARTHING IS BETWEEN  CHASSIS / BODY AND THE MOTOR. CLEAN UNDER BOLTS.

[DarraghR]

So just to summarize


I will check connections going into the ECU and make sure everything is clean, plugged in correctly and no signs of damage.

So there is some gunk on the - minus uncovered connection of the battery. I thought this might be grease. So completely clean this off?

Check fuse board and fuses attached. Make sure all are properly plugged in and not blown.

Finally would it be best to completely disconnect the battery and clean every part of it?

[nzenigma]

just to summarize
I will check connections going into the ECU and make sure everything is clean, plugged in correctly and no signs of damage.
So there is some gunk on the - minus uncovered connection of the battery. I thought this might be grease. So completely clean this off?
Check fuse board and fuses attached. Make sure all are properly plugged in and not blown.
Finally would it be best to completely disconnect the battery and clean every part of it?

Basically, Yes.

Darragh, from here in Oz it is all best guess. Sorry, but we often guess the correct answer.  What I can be fairly sure of is that you have only one fault and it is probably simple to fix.

There is some sand like stuff on the battery, It may be just magnified by your camera, but I have observed that Euro cars have a lot of corrosion from winter road conditions; therefore, Im alerting you to possible corrosion on any electrical component.
Yes it is grease, a mechanic has put it there to counter  corrosion.

When you try to start, 1 does your starter sound strong? 2 does the motor spin fast? 3 do the headlights NOT fade out?
If all these functions work ok ( as above) your battery connection is ok.

You dont seem to get it about the earth straps. Look for them, it is important.

If that engine light (MIL) stays on when you are running, it means you have a code(s) again.
Im taking a punt that it is B1102 again. But we dont know unless you can get a scanner on to it. One of your mates may have a cheap scanner, $30 on ebay, with code and look-up on the web you will have as much info as the workshop gave you.

[DarraghR]

I am going to try replacing the crank shaft sensor as it seems to be link to a lot of the symptoms. Can someone please tell me where it might be located. I have watch a few YouTube videos but the location might possibly be different on my model.

Jacked the car up earlier and had a look underneath as well. Link to some pictures - Link to pictures

[tw2005]

I am going to try replacing the crank shaft sensor as it seems to be link to a lot of the symptoms. Can someone please tell me where it might be located. I have watch a few YouTube videos but the location might possibly be different on my model.

Jacked the car up earlier and had a look underneath as well. Link to some pictures - Link to pictures

391802B000

Hopefully this image helps  item 39180




 


 

[nzenigma]

As usual, Gerard ( @tw2005 ) has been generous with his time
 @DarraghR . Pity you didnt bother give him progress reports or respond to my question about possible new fault codes. 

[DarraghR]

Hi nzenigma. Sorry for not giving updates on the areas you mentioned. Car is not starting at all now so I have been commuting a lot. I do appreciate all of the help that has been given.

I found the ECU and checked the fuses but all look good. Also disconnected the battery for a bit then reconnected. On the battery a lot of grease was applied for corrosion prevention but no major dirt.

tw2005 thank you so much for providing that diagram. From watching videos on crank shaft sensor replacement and from the diagram it shows on the right side when facing the front of the car. Yet when I look under my car it seems to be on the left hand side.

Please have a look at the pictures below of where I think it is. Very hard to get a picture of the connector end so I have circled in red.

Something important maybe to note is the cable covering looks like it has come off on the sensor end.

[tw2005]

Hi nzenigma. Sorry for not giving updates on the areas you mentioned. Car is not starting at all now so I have been commuting a lot. I do appreciate all of the help that has been given.

I found the ECU and checked the fuses but all look good. Also disconnected the battery for a bit then reconnected. On the battery a lot of grease was applied for corrosion prevention but no major dirt.

tw2005 thank you so much for providing that diagram. From watching videos on crank shaft sensor replacement and from the diagram it shows on the right side when facing the front of the car. Yet when I look under my car it seems to be on the left hand side.

Please have a look at the pictures below of where I think it is. Very hard to get a picture of the connector end so I have circled in red.

Something important maybe to note is the cable covering looks like it has come off on the sensor end.

Could be it. Picture 2 has part number stamped on it . Can't quite make all the numbers out

[DarraghR]

Right so good news is the car has went from not starting at all to starting  Progress was made. I was working in the dark for 1hr and said I would call it a day.

Possible causes that I have found are either

1. New sensor was not inserted far enough in (I still have concerns that it is not fully inserted)
2. I needed to add oil to the new sensor.
3. Bolt that attaches the ground cable to the battery was loose. I may have done this when disconnecting the battery to install the new sensor.
4. Condition of the old sensor ribbed cable cover had a lot of cracks in it.

The old sensor is still in the engine bay as I ran out of time and it is quite hard to disconnect. It would be interesting to see tomorrow if I put the old sensor back in will it start up.

The new sensor seemed to attach to metal that it came in contact with from the magnet inside where the old one did not or very little. Is this a known sign of a faulty crank shaft sensor?

The warning lights are still on my dashboard but I presume the error codes need to be cleared even if the problem has been fixed?


Two concerns I still have are shown in the pictures below.

1. Is that the bold side of the sensor is pretty much in but the opposite end where the sensor is located is not fully inserted as I found it difficult to push in whilst under the car.

2. Could the old sensor interfere with anything important like electronically or magnetically? I am guessing the new sensor must be routed the same was as the old to avoid engine heat damaging the cable?

[tw2005]

Right so good news is the car has went from not starting at all to starting  Progress was made. I was working in the dark for 1hr and said I would call it a day.

Possible causes that I have found are either

1. New sensor was not inserted far enough in (I still have concerns that it is not fully inserted)
2. I needed to add oil to the new sensor.
3. Bolt that attaches the ground cable to the battery was loose. I may have done this when disconnecting the battery to install the new sensor.
4. Condition of the old sensor ribbed cable cover had a lot of cracks in it.

The old sensor is still in the engine bay as I ran out of time and it is quite hard to disconnect. It would be interesting to see tomorrow if I put the old sensor back in will it start up.

The new sensor seemed to attach to metal that it came in contact with from the magnet inside where the old one did not or very little. Is this a known sign of a faulty crank shaft sensor?

The warning lights are still on my dashboard but I presume the error codes need to be cleared even if the problem has been fixed?


Two concerns I still have are shown in the pictures below.

1. Is that the bold side of the sensor is pretty much in but the opposite end where the sensor is located is not fully inserted as I found it difficult to push in whilst under the car.

2. Could the old sensor interfere with anything important like electronically or magnetically? I am guessing the new sensor must be routed the same was as the old to avoid engine heat damaging the cable?

You need to remove that bolt and get that sensor seated flush. You  will have incorrect clearance between it and the flywheel.  Also tightening that bolt with it like that you run the risk of damaging your new sensor.

Is it a genuine sensor?

Should fit in like the original
 Maybe there is corrosion or foreign debris fouling it.  Maybe a small amount of lube on the neck and twist it back and forth as you insert.

I  would remove old sensor  . Make sure harnesses are secured where they were originally. 

Could not hurt to reconnect old sensor to prove fault.  I am expecting it was the culprit.

[tw2005]

Also  do a quick comparison betwee old and new sensor that the sensor part is same in length and width.

These are inductive pickups so yes they should be magnetic

[nzenigma]

Could not hurt to reconnect old sensor to prove fault.  I am expecting it was the culprit.

If it is, it will be the first time that has been the proven culprit. 

I have read reports elsewhere about no rev counter function and the crank sensor has been blamed or suggested. As usual one has bothered to return and to report a good or bad conclusion. 

The difference with Darragh's  car is that it was still running and drive-able, so with no rev info, what was informing spark and fuel injector timing?

Darragh,  your scanner will be displaying fault codes. Please let us know what they are. Just the numbers please.

After that, look for a "clear codes" function on the scanner and press the button with scanner connected and car ignition turned to on.
Codes will be cleared. They will reappear after driving the car if fault is not repaired. Otherwise its all good hopefully.

[DarraghR]

I came across the following post which led me to believe it might be the sensor along with information from this post. Nats PM'ed to confirm the problem has not returned.

Slow start, ESP off light active and no rev counter

Unfortunately I do not have my own scanner. The one I ordered is a fake and gives no information. I obtained the codes from a mechanic but I would like to invest in a good one for faults and clearing codes.

Ok thats good to know once they are cleared the dashboard signs should disappear.

Will report back tomorrow or the day after when I get a chance to correctly insert the sensor.

[nzenigma]

I came across the following post which led me to believe it might be the sensor along with information from this post. Nats PM'ed to confirm the problem has not returned.

Slow start, ESP off light active and no rev counter

Unfortunately I do not have my own scanner. The one I ordered is a fake and gives no information. I obtained the codes from a mechanic but I would like to invest in a good one for faults and clearing codes.

Ok thats good to know once they are cleared the dashboard signs should disappear.

Will report back tomorrow or the day after when I get a chance to correctly insert the sensor.

Please do that. 

Hope it works out, you deserve a break if only for the research you have done.
I had forgotten the above issue, both Tim  @cruiserfied  and I were involved, but no clear conclusion was reached.
Just shows once again ( hopefully) the value of our database and search engine.