Author Topic: Catalyzed Particulate Filter  (Read 22999 times)

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #30 : September 05, 2008, 07:39:02 »
Hi Donc,

Downside of Diesels :roll:  Well I have to admit that with current fuel pricing if I were to buy one for low mileage/Klms use they would be a tad more expensive. True they do require on old petrol head (like me) to modify the driving style a bit in order to get the best out of them and avoid the flat spot when the turbo is about to kick in. However the next generation two stage Turbos has fixed that one. Not on my shopping list yet unfortunately. (Saab and now Citroen C5)

Once moving that extra torque means that driving is fun again even for an old fart like me. As Thumper has demonstrated the i30 can deliver 3l/100 Klm and still be fun to drive.

Now as for new technology. Of course the 1960s was when the "Common Rail" itself was first used in Railway Diesels. If I remember correctly. I will have to agree that is not so new. However the combination of Electronic Control and the third generation Piezoelectric Injectors that can inject six times during a power stroke have been evolving for over ten years now. That is still fairly new in my terms.  :(

I do like your Container Ship Diesel. That is one magnificent bit of Engineering. I will bet someone is going to have fun re-engineering that setup to meet the Emission Requirements for shipping that California have taken the lead and announced. Marine diesel emissions are now being targeted too. How big would the Particulate filter need to be to look after one of those monsters?? This thread was about Catalyzed Particulate Filters at one time. I am off topic as usual. :oops:

For me the exciting anticipation is about the coming availability of better Diesel Fuel. Gas to Liquid blends in the near future will be more economic as well as cleaner. I have linked to these before here http://http://www.chemlink.com.au/gtl.htm and here http://http://www.shell.com/home/content/shellgasandpower-en/products_and_services/what_is_gtl/dir_what_is_gtl_1205.html Although better economy and a major improvement in emissions can be had by blending in LPG with the diesel in the manifold. Again it is the cost that would be the inhibitor. Check it out here http://http://d-gas.com.au The fast payback for trucks and other heavy diesels does not translate so well to small diesels like the i30 even with the Australian Federal Government grants. (Except in WA where the State Govt chips in too.)

The real excitement in some quarters is the prospect of Diesel becoming a Solar Powered option. The Diesel Fuel from the sun is of course the next generation of Biofuels. That is Diesel from Algae and other types of Biomass. Algae grown on ponds would require 0. 2% or less  of America's land to meet ALL of the USAs transport needs according to the research now being turned into practice. So we have at least five years to wait but the investment frenzy is getting under way. Background here. http://http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/biofuel-algae-biodiesel/395 and here http://http://www.globalgreensolutionsinc.com/s/Vertigro.asp These newer projections are looking at producing Bio Diesel at up to 200.000  Gallons (US) per Acre per year. That is about a 280 times better yield than Palm Oil which is the top first generation Bio Diesel source. The fact that these fuels do not compete with Food for land is of course a huge attraction as is the fact that water use is minimal. All of the next gen Ethanol sources seem to need plenty of land and water, so far, even if it is not prime agricultural land.

I have read that Mercedes-Benz have shut down development of V8 petrol engines in favor of diesel as they do not believe spark ignition will be able to meet the emission and fuel efficiency required when Europe moves to a post Euro6 standard. So yes I do think that Diesel or a Diesel Hybrid is the way to go. So maybe next time you buy a Mark Two i30 you might yet become a Diesel Head like us Diesel Nuts. On the other hand there are plenty betting on wringing more efficiency from spark ignition engines. For me the real question is the sustainability of a liquid fuel.

Do not get me wrong I too like the idea of all electric zero emission transport. I just think I will not live to see it. My Grandkids might.

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #31 : September 05, 2008, 08:01:27 »
Quote from: "donc"
So what do you blokes really think of them? - Is a small improvement in fuel economy worth the downsides of diesel? - Are you in love with them? - or are they really quirky but with a 'nice to feel green' feeling about them?

In short, are these little diesels worth the money?

Sounds like you may not have driven one of these "little diesels"!

I need to preface these comments with the observation that I am not really a "petrol head" (although one of my previous cars was a Calibra 4x4 turbo capable of 250 km/h, the fastest it ever went while I owned it (195 kmh) was when my wife was driving, and even more embarrassing was that the only reason it wasn't higher was that the piece of straight road we were driving on in western Victoria developed a bend)

Normally I drive a petrol car to get good economy - change gears at 3000-3500 rpm unless really need the power/acceleration).  This is typically below max torque and way below max power in a petrol engine.  In a diesel, the max power and torque are more like in the 1500 - 3000 rpm range, so if you drive a modern diesel in the same rev range it will likely go as well if not much better than the petrol version of the same car.  It's the torque (diesel+turbo) that makes the difference.

While I have only had a brief test drive in an i30 (prior to placing my as yet undelivered order last May), I also have a Ford Transit motorhome which weighs 4 tonnes powered by a 2.4 litre turbo diesel.  It will cruise all day at 110 kmh and climbs hills like you woudn't believe. even in 6th gear.

dave

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #32 : September 05, 2008, 09:08:56 »
Well put Dave,

Donc, What are these down sides of deisel you speak of. The only down side i can think of is the extra cost of deisel, but when you're getting 1000k to a tank, you would hardly complain.
There is certainly no downside in performance.
I test drove the petrol, its impressive, but the deisel is outstanding. :P

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #33 : September 05, 2008, 09:22:14 »
Quote
Sounds like you may not have driven one of these "little diesels"!
Hi guys - Dave yes, I've driven this and other small diesel cars. Also worked on them. I'm a mechanic by trade and automotive engineer by profession, even though nowadays my main source of income comes from IT - still keep my 'hand in' working on friends and family cars plus we have a large fleet at work of various types including small diesels.

Seems to me a highlight of this thread is the way we all identify different reasons/opinions for our choices of car... and funnily enough the reason I did NOT by a diesel isn't related to anything written here so far... it's a totally different reason again, and something I think I will start another thread with because it will (hopefully) generate some good chit-chat between the 'diesel -v- ULP' crowd :-)

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #34 : September 05, 2008, 09:54:12 »
hi donc,
(I'm also in IT but unemployed by trade!).  Of course everyone has their own motives in deciding what car to buy (and manipulates them to get the desired outcome!!).  For me, diesel suits my style of driving, which make it easier for me to justify (despite the increasing discrepancy between diesel and petrol prices in Oz at the moment).  If I am honest however, I use fuel consumption as an excuse to justify my purchase even though it probably doesn't add up financially, but the real reason for my buying decision is that I prefer the way the diesel drives vs the petrol and I'll make up any justification that I need for my decision!!

(Now I'll get back to listening to my vinyl - CDs will never sound as good....)

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #35 : September 05, 2008, 11:28:48 »
I bought my diesel because of the ecomomy it affords over unleaded.

What type of engine set up doesn't bother me so long as it starts on the turn of the key and goes with a bit of umph when needed.

With 5 years warranty, any engine issues should be covered so long as I can prove I've not been negligent, i.e. running with out oil.
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #36 : September 05, 2008, 19:45:11 »
Quote
(Now I'll get back to listening to my vinyl - CDs will never sound as good....)
In that... we are in total aggreement  8-)

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #37 : September 07, 2008, 02:07:02 »
Right, first things first, my only weekend day off, I've spent under the i30, camera and toolkit in hand.

I've taken the first device off in the exhaust system, taken photos, and did some research on the net. (Also asked some questions from those in the know)

My Australian i30 does NOT have a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).

My Australian i30 does have a COF (Catalyzed Oxidation Filter).

EDIT: What the i30 has is commonly referred to as a DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst)

Quote
Diesel engines

For compression ignition (i.e., Diesel) engines, the most commonly used catalytic converter is the diesel oxidation catalyst. The catalyst uses excess O2 (oxygen) in the exhaust gas stream to oxidize CO (Carbon Monoxide) to CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) and HC (hydrocarbons) to H2O (water) and CO2. These converters often reach 90% effectiveness, virtually eliminating diesel odor and helping to reduce visible particulates (soot), however they are incapable of reducing NOx as chemical reactions always occur in the simplest possible way, and the existing O2 in the exhaust gas stream would react first.

To reduce NOx on a compression ignition engine it is necessary to change the exhaust gas - two main technologies are used for this - selective catalytic reduction (SCR) and NOx (NOx) traps (or NOx Adsorbers).

Another issue for diesel engines is particulate (soot). This can be controlled by a soot trap or diesel particulate filter (DPF), as catalytic converters are unable to affect elemental carbon (however they will remove up to 90% of the soluble organic fraction). A clogging soot filter creates a lot of back pressure decreasing engine performance. However, once clogged, the filter goes through a regeneration cycle where diesel fuel is injected directly into the exhaust stream and the soot is burned off. After the soot has been burned off the regeneration cycle stops and injection of diesel fuel stops. This regeneration cycle should not affect performance of the engine.







There you go.  :|

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  • gb United Kingdom
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #38 : September 07, 2008, 02:26:48 »
Thank You Thumper :D

One probably unsolvable mystery remains. Why did Hyundai Australia not explain this simple but important distinction when all those questions about CPF or DPF were asked?

For your efforts and generous posting of Photographs I can only repeat. Thank You Very Much.

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #39 : September 07, 2008, 02:58:14 »
Thumper you have my respect m8!
I like someone that gets in and does what we are all to lazy to do and finds out the truth.
also the King of knowledge our Mate Bunyip can now sleep better :D
Cheers

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #40 : September 07, 2008, 04:47:52 »
Thanks Thumper... Very much appreciate your time and effort... 8-)
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #41 : September 07, 2008, 07:52:35 »
My cars in for is 12 month service in 2 weeks will ask again re UK crdi's.

They have indicated they will have to order in fully synth oil for my service.
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #42 : September 07, 2008, 19:53:52 »
Hi eye30,

Not being a gambler my money is not at risk but I would not be surprised to discover that the Filter in the UK Exhaust system is the same one that is used in Australia. After all the same engine and almost identical published emission figures would imply that there is not much mechanical difference between them. The particulate figures for the i30, which are inside the Euro4 range,  fits well with what Thumper has dug up on Diesel Oxidation Catalysts. Particulate figures for cars from the PSA/Ford family which use a different technology are much lower.

The Higher Cetane  rating and (currently) lower Sulphur of UK Diesel should mean that UK i30s run with cleaner exhausts.

UK - Cetane =51 Sulphur =10ppm
AU - Cetane =46 Sulphur =50ppm (10ppm from 1/1/09)

It might be interesting to print off and show Thumper's photographs to your service tech and ask about a comparison with what is fitted in the UK?

I suspect you would raise a smile if you told them that Hyundai Australia had denied that the i30 had a filter when asked if it had a DPF.

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #43 : October 04, 2008, 11:52:44 »
Buhahahahahahaha   :lol:  :lol:


Ah  hahahahahahahahahaha  :lol:  :D  :mrgreen:  :lol:  :lol:

I just answered my mobile phone and it was the new place I booked into.

It was a simple question they asked me.

"Is your Premium i30 fitted with a CPF?"

Buhahahahaha.

They're asking me  :?
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #44 : October 04, 2008, 14:01:28 »
Quote from: "Shambles"
I said they need to determine if I have a Catalyzed Particle Filter and if so, would they be using ACEA C3 oil spec.
I just answered my mobile phone and it was the new place I booked into.
"Is your Premium i30 fitted with a CPF?"
They're asking me

What did you say?  or is it not printable on a public site!!

My dealer said Yes and and to prove it they charged me the earth, or was it the cost of Saudi, for the oil.

Would be interested on what they say and whatever the answer - yes or no - could you ask them where they got their info from.
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #45 : October 04, 2008, 14:16:53 »
Thanks for your reply eye30.

My reply was a simple one. I referred them to the question I did ask them when I booked her in, which was the same question they were asking me. Still, it shows that, despite them closing at 12:30 this afternoon, they continue to work on their booking info (it was several hours after they "closed" when they called me).

I've been under Fergie's duvet since that call trying to locate some sticker that might show what's required oil-wise. No clues in the engine department. But I did take the opportunity to see how easy it would be to fit the ECO CR adaptor.
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #46 : October 04, 2008, 14:49:32 »
Quote from: "Shambles"
I've been under Fergie's duvet since that call trying to locate some sticker that might show what's required oil-wise. No clues in the engine department

Likewise no stickers on my car.

The only place I've seen oil grade is in the Handbook.  

Wasn't   ????????   (can't remember who from OZ) going to take a look inside the exhaust pipe.
But I remember a posting stating that in OZ they had CPF, then another -  NO CPF in OZ as not required for enviromental purpose like the European market.

Seems even Hy don't know whether they have them or not or even UK dealers!!!!
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #47 : October 04, 2008, 15:15:52 »
So I can expect more questions from my servicing agents then. Doh!

TBH I'm starting to not be concerned anymore whether I get fully synth or semi synth or even jelly synth, as long as I get the stamp of approval.
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #48 : October 04, 2008, 18:48:20 »
Hi Guys,

Somewhere on here we did confirm no CPF in Aus but you guys definately have one in the UK. We need to use fully synthetic.. you need fully synthetic (but the low ash variety)
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #49 : October 05, 2008, 03:53:23 »
Quote from: "eye30"
Wasn't   ????????   (can't remember who from OZ) going to take a look inside the exhaust pipe.

That was me, and yes, already posted pictures on the previous page.  8-)

Linky here

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #50 : October 05, 2008, 07:38:46 »
Thanks Thumper.
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #51 : October 05, 2008, 13:50:44 »
Came across this on the Castrol UK/Ireland web site.

You put in your reg number or model and it will tell you if you have a CPF.

Best with Reg number as under model it shows 2 85kw models for 1.6 crdi. 1 with, 1 without.

Might be a similar site for other countries.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/castrolh ... oryId=3205

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/iframe.d ... Id=7044829


According to the site, with reg number, mine does have CPF!!!!
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #52 : October 05, 2008, 14:09:13 »
Quote from: "Shambles"
So I can expect more questions from my servicing agents then.


Point them to this website or you check and tell them!!!

Castrol UK/Ireland web site.
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/castrolh ... oryId=3205

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/iframe.d ... Id=7044829

Put in your reg number and it will tell you if you have a CPF.

Best with Reg number as under model it shows 2 85kw models for 1.6 crdi. 1 with, 1 without.
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #53 : October 05, 2008, 21:46:20 »
I was given the phone number of Hyundai technical information, and spoke about the CPF.
It is not in the Australian i30's because it was not required to meet emissions standards.

To buy separately would cost $000's because as well as the filter it needs lots of other stuff to match it, maybe the computer control?
If it was standard on the car it would cost much less.
I did not understand everything he said, a lot of it went right over my head, but he seems to know his stuff.

If any of you need more info I can send private message with the Victorian phone number, just dont want 50 people hassling them, better if one person knows the right questions to ask!

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #54 : October 06, 2008, 20:32:49 »
Quote from: "kinesiologykid"
It is not in the Australian i30's because it was not required to meet emissions standards.
It's a real shame Hyundai chose not to be proactive and provide a DPF for the Australian market anyway (even better with a NOX absorber) - The i30 CRDI could have been a real environmental winner, yet without a filter it's just another polluting diesel pumping NOX and particulates into the atmosphere. Maybe retrofitting will be an option if the price of supply and the associated modification prerequisites reduce sufficiently? - I wouldn't want to see govt subsidies (our taxes) used for this purpose, although maybe manufacturers can reduce cost sufficiently to make the conversion viable?

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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #55 : October 09, 2008, 08:35:15 »
just got my diesel today.  No CPF..  This is on the rocker cover


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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #56 : October 09, 2008, 08:45:52 »
LD
At least you know that your car doesn't have one.

So does this mean if you don't have the sticker you have one!!
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #57 : October 09, 2008, 14:17:27 »
eye30, can you confirm (from your service receipt) exactly what kind of oil was used, that it complied with C3 (ACEA) ?
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #58 : October 09, 2008, 14:55:03 »
Quote from: "Shambles"
eye30, can you confirm (from your service receipt) exactly what kind of oil was used, that it complied with C3 (ACEA) ?

Unfortunately the receipt only has "Engine Oil" 5.30 l @ 11.95/l ex VAT

When I booked in the service chap said mine was "special" oil not the usual oil they use on other Hy cars and would be ordered in.

When I paid I commented on the price and they said it was fully synthetic as per Hy UK requirements and no worries over warrant issues if the engine blew up.

BUT he did say my i30 had a CPF.

If I have time tomorrow I'll ring and ask what they actually used.

PS looking at the service schedule they gave me they only replaced the oil filter and oil.  The rest was inspect or lubricate.


Has your garage come back to you with an answer yet?
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Re: Catalyzed Particulate Filter
« Reply #59 : October 09, 2008, 15:02:36 »
Thanks for the reply :)

Quote from: "eye30"
Has your garage come back to you with an answer yet?
No. I'll call them soon.
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