Author Topic: Beware of using wrong oil  (Read 10756 times)

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Beware of using wrong oil
« November 27, 2008, 16:44:45 »
On a local radio phone yesterday a chap had his car, not an i30, serviced at a non franchised dealer and within a few months of the service the Turbo failed.  They assured him that they had used the grade of oil specified by the manufacturer via a garage wide database.

He took the car to the franchised dealers for the Turbo to be replaced under warranty and before the manufacture would agree, asked for the invoice and a sample of the oil so they could confirm grade of oil used.

They replied that the wrong grade of oil had been used so the repair wasn't covered under warranty.

He checked which oil grade should be used I think he said at 4 other franchised dealers.

Two came back with the oil the service garage had used and the other 2 came back with different oil grades.

As the manufacture refused to replace under warranty he had the Turbo replace by the franchised dealer, at his own cost, and the oil used was detailed on the invoice.

Now guess what oil had been used?

Yes the same grade of oil used by the garage who did the service!

He is taking this issue to Trading Standards as they are very interested especially as the franchised dealer used the oil the manufacturers said was incorrect.

I know this has been cover in another thread but felt it should stand alone.

Any views???





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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #1 : November 27, 2008, 20:51:17 »
Ouch?

Wait - "at his own cost" - you mean the guy who owned the car or the franchised dealer? If "They assured him that they had used the grade of oil specified by the manufacturer via a garage wide database" then the GARAGE should be paying for the turbo;

if the franchised dealer then used that same oil in the new turbo installation, he would possibly only be able to sue for any new damage to that turbo - because the dealer could just say it was a new turbo version which COULD handle that oil.

The warranty is a form of contract - if you breach that contract by using the wrong oil, then you can't do much about it. Except maybe go to "A Current Affair" or as you mentioned - Trading Standards.

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #2 : November 28, 2008, 00:46:55 »
I would go to the oil company and tell them the manufacturer said there oil is no good, as most good oil co's will stand by there product if it meet requirement. but you did not state brand or type or grade of oil. or even what car, as petrol turbo's need different oil than diesel turbo's. also petrol turbo's if fitted to 4 cylinders they spin at a much higher speed than a diesel turbo ever would need to. and in most cases i would expect a 4 cylinder petrol turbo to require turbine replacement after about 100,000k ( 60,000 mile)


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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #3 : November 28, 2008, 04:25:24 »
That's interesting John

You're saying our turbo on the diesel spins a lot slower than a turbo on a Petrol car? I like the sound of that  :biggrin: As I thought the turbo would be the weak link in an inherently strong Diesel motor...
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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #4 : November 28, 2008, 15:19:16 »
well known Dazz, only petrol turbo i know that don't spin fast is the xr6, but i'm sure aftermarket twin turbo V8 street cars i have seen would not need to spin that fast eather. but those 4 cylinder turbo's spin hard as the motors rev 8,000 to 9,000 rev depending on aplication.
just don't forget let your motor idle at least 30 seconds or more b4 turning off, turbo's mostly eather fail from turbine metal fatugue or turbine bearing failure, if you keep turning motor off fast as soon as you stop, cooked oil will eventually build up on bearing, if you alow to idle the circulating oil will cool it down and then as you shut off it will have some freash oil there on bearing for when you restart motor. i know its a pain doing this but thats why i say, " a car is only as good as the driver"
cheers
ps some old diesel wrenchs don't like the turbo diesels they think they are trouble waiting to happen, but operate them with thought and they will last, i have a friend with 350,000k up on a small turbo diesel common rail, he uses Shell oil and is a good operator drives carefully

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #5 : February 16, 2009, 16:28:00 »
Oil is becoming more and more critical for newer cars. There are still a lot of workshops who just put 20W50 crap in everything. It's a real drama, but it's something that you need to take up with whoever did the work on the vehicle.

Many common rail diesels require very specialised oils, which are more expensive, and this is one of the reasons in the end I bought a petrol. When CRDis are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters (DPFs), which all automatics in Australia are, it is even more critical to use the correct oil.

From a dealer's point of view, when a vehicle presents with a major failure the dealer must contact Hyundai for authorisation before doing any work. Hyundai will want to see all relevant service records, i.e. oil changes for engine or turbo issues, coolant changes for water pump issues, etc etc. You can't blame the manufacturer for doing this, they build an excellent product and they know just how likely it is that a well maintained example will blow a turbo. If it has had the wrong oil and not been serviced at a dealer they will not help. If the dealer does major work without Hyundai's say-so they will not get paid.

As far as the dealer using the wrong oil, I can imagine that happens. A lot of people don't realise the difference in the cost of wholesale oils, where the "correct" oil for a car like an i30 CRDi is up to 4 times more expensive than the "el cheapo" stuff that some vehicles will tolerate. They still should be using the correct stuff, but sometimes greed overtakes doing the right thing. And some customers go ballistic when you try and charge them a fair price for putting the "right" oil in their Hyundai. Midas can do it cheaper but then you might have this problem. The trick is to know what oil it needs and make sure that oil is used and that you keep the records of it.

Hyundai will back people who get their cars serviced at the dealer, even if the dealer does the wrong thing. Sometimes Hy will repair the vehicle and then sort the bill out with the dealer if it is due to their error.

Unfortunately if you never take the car back for service you can't expect them to look after you as well as someone who religiously returns it to the dealer. I had one customer with a Terracan CRDi who had done 83000km and the car had never been serviced at the dealer, then he got a service done at the local Jax tyre shop and they put an aftermarket fuel filter on because the genuine one was too expensive. The next day the car wouldn't start, and it got towed in for warranty repairs. The filter had collapsed internally and the car could not build fuel pressure. The customer expected Hyundai (or me) to pay for the new filter, the tow to the workshop and provide him with a loan vehicle while his was off the road, because after all the car was under warranty. He ended up paying for the lot.

This is not to say you can't get it serviced aftermarket or do it yourself, but my advice from the inside of the industry is to use genuine parts (even though they are not always cheap) and top quality fluids and keep those receipts!


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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #6 : February 16, 2009, 17:01:10 »
A good post and a useful "bump" from November, MRH130. Great advice and most welcome.

However, I don't understand this comment..

Quote
they build an excellent product and they know just how likely it is that a well maintained example will blow a turbo
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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #7 : February 16, 2009, 22:35:54 »
...just making the point that it's harder to pull the wool over a manufacturer's eyes than some people think. They see global data on failures and do exhaustive testing, and they know that certain parts are not likely to just give up the ghost if the vehicle has been maintained correctly and not abused. Things still break and they will stand by that 100%, but any major component failure will be investigated to make sure that it actually is a manufacturing defect, and that it doesn't happen in the future to other vehicles.

The dealer I used to work for had a Holden franchise too and the number of people who would show up with shattered diffs and clutches in their SS Commodores swearing black and blue that they had never even floored the car let alone done a burnout was amazing. And there was a customer I had with an early Terracan V6 where the water pump failed and he swore that it'd never missed a coolant change, despite having no documents to back it up and the cooling system containing vast amounts of rusty sludge.

People sometimes think they can try it on, but they rarely get away with it. If they're offering a 5 year warranty they know it's pretty unlikely to break. ;o)

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #8 : February 17, 2009, 02:32:53 »
Hi MRH130, welcome. well m8 i have multi valve V8 falcon Ute that i've told everyone about 1,000 times :wink: i just use 15W 40W  turbo Diesel mineral base. have 210,000k never needed any warranty has carried 1 ton loads and towed trailers. have a m8 with an XR8 that has 350,000k uses same oil as me no problem eather. we have never changed the water eather or gear box or diff oils. touch wood. what do you think?

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #9 : February 17, 2009, 08:39:39 »
The post by MRH130 hits the point 100% and I would endorse his comments.

Although there are plently of good service garages you only realise the worth of a dealer service if you have a problem and need to make a claim under warranty.  This happened to me with my Accent when the front brake pads had to be renewed after 24 months, approx 12k miles. Fully replaced no cost to me.

I know from testing the service market for my 10,000 miles service I could have got it between 10-15% cheaper than the dealers. 
Outside warranty I would need to consider cost etc but from past experience I've been able to get the dealer to "agree" a reasonable price comparable with non dealer garages.

I was aware that the oil had to be C3 and although the non dealer garages said they would use C3 I decided that if I needed a warranty claim relating to the engine there would be no hassle via the dealer.

Question:
You can usually tell if an item has been replaced - filter, plugs, coolant etc but can you tell what grade of oil has been used by visual only?
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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #10 : February 17, 2009, 13:55:07 »
Eye, are you saying brake pads have a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty too?
what about tyres?
all i'm saying is i have done 210,000 in 4 years not one problem but replace front brake pads at 90,000k sydney driving. the ute had a 100,000k warranty, my friend has done 350,000 in 6 years same clutch and his brake pads don't wear as he is a country boy they don't need to brake often. so your saying Hyundai are not as robust as a Ford?

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #11 : February 17, 2009, 16:56:43 »
Hi MRH130, welcome. well m8 i have multi valve V8 falcon Ute that i've told everyone about 1,000 times :wink: i just use 15W 40W  turbo Diesel mineral base. have 210,000k never needed any warranty has carried 1 ton loads and towed trailers. have a m8 with an XR8 that has 350,000k uses same oil as me no problem eather. we have never changed the water eather or gear box or diff oils. touch wood. what do you think?
Some people do get lucky, I've seen a Getz that went 66000km with it's original oil and it survived. I still wouldn't buy it second hand. I've also heard of an Explorer (AKA Exploder) that went 91000km without an oil change before it died. If it's the BA/BF 3 valve V8 or a Boss V8 I'm not surprised it's happy with that oil, despite having VCT and being multi-valve it's still a fairly basic type of engine. Being that age (the multi valve V8 only came out in 2002) I'm not totally surprised if it's survived without a coolant flush too. However, when it does fall over (which it will eventually) it will be a real mess. I have a 1983 Volvo 240 which has 517000km on the original engine and has never had a spanner on it except for scrupulous servicing. I changed the radiator hoses about 6 months ago and the inside of the thermostat housing was as solid (and clean) as new, after half a million ks and 26 years. It doesn't even use any oil, which is pretty rare in a petrol engine with that many ks on it.

There are many cars that will tolerate less stringent servicing than others, but some just won't cop it. When things are built to the sort of tolerances that an i30 CRDi motor is built to they will not cope with bits of rubbish floating around in the oil. I have seen with my own eyes a Terracan Diesel that had good quality oil of the wrong grade (still only 15W40) that would not rev over 1000rpm with the pedal flat on the floor until the oil warmed up and thinned out. Changed the oil to the correct grade and it was happy as a pig in poop. Jackaroo diesels flat out refuse to start when cold unless they have the correct oil in them.

Yes you could run an old Kingswood or Falcon on just about anything, but you can't get the sort of smoothness, efficiency and quietness that modern diesels provide and have them tolerate rubbish oil. When I was in college I had an old 2 litre Escort that was knackered and I ran it on plain water in the cooling system and used engine oil. Never changed the oil in about 2 years and did pizza deliveries which racks up a lot of ks, and apart from burning more oil than fuel it never died. But I wouldn't try that in a modern car.

Like I say I have seen some modern cars cop brutal abuse and severe neglect and keep going, but they are not the norm, they will not give their full potential life, they won't drive as nicely as a well kept example, and really, if you're spending that amount of money on something you need to keep going and maybe have a bit of value left to sell it one day, servicing properly is well worthwhile.

People look at me like I'm mad for putting Mobil 1 in a Hyundai (or an old Volvo for that matter) but I have total confidence that the motors in my cars are not going to have a sudden, major failure.

Anyway, as with most things, it is a matter of horses for courses.


Question:
You can usually tell if an item has been replaced - filter, plugs, coolant etc but can you tell what grade of oil has been used by visual only?

No you can't really tell what grade the oil is by looking, but most oil companies offer an analysis service. Manufacturers are not afraid to send samples off if they are suspicious of what has been used (or how long it's been in there...)  :wink:


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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #12 : February 18, 2009, 01:06:19 »
MRH130, sorry m8, i miss under\stood your post, my ute and my friends ute have both been serviced  and had the oil changed every 5,000k from new, just ment i use that oil no problem with cat converters on eather ute.
i'm not one that leave's oil in motors with out changing. i have seen that myself but eventually they go and need a total rebuild.

I don't use that oil in my i30 CRDi, starts perfect runs strong 27,000 does not need topping up between 7,000 k services. i use Redline in my bike and find it good so far.
i'm not a Mobile1  fan. but am sure its fine, i like the good ELF oil like they used in F1's have seen how well that works and have inspected parts that had extream loads put on them useing that oil and they looked like new. just with Synthetic oil if it gets too hot important aditives get effected and don't work. i have seen that motors runing on Synthetic had or showed more wear at the gudgion pin to piston.

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #13 : February 18, 2009, 06:30:42 »
I don't use that oil in my i30 CRDi, starts perfect runs strong 27,000 does not need topping up between 7,000 k services. i use Redline in my bike and find it good so far.
i'm not a Mobile1  fan. but am sure its fine, i like the good ELF oil like they used in F1's have seen how well that works and have inspected parts that had extream loads put on them useing that oil and they looked like new. just with Synthetic oil if it gets too hot important aditives get effected and don't work. i have seen that motors runing on Synthetic had or showed more wear at the gudgion pin to piston.

hehe no worries mate, like I said it's horses for courses, but certainly some modern cars are more demanding in what oil they want in them.

I used to work for Mobil a long time ago, and I guess I just got addicted to Mobil 1, although I don't get it for cheap any more :'(. I have had some pretty crazy cars and done some pretty crazy things with them and never had anything approaching a problem with them. Broken just about everything except the engines!

I know a lot of those European oils such as ELF are really good stuff, and they do get great results with mineral oils. I have heard the stories about gudgeon wear with synthetics too, but never actually seen or experienced it personally. There are lots of great products out there, but as someone once said, "When you're on a good thing, stick to it" and being a cranky old b**tard I tend to do that.  :wink:

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #14 : February 18, 2009, 08:17:17 »
Eye, are you saying brake pads have a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty too?
what about tyres?

No.  I think the warranty is only 2 years or 20K against defects.

But because of the low mileage the garage contacted Hy and indicated that as they had worn excessively there must be a defect.
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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #15 : February 19, 2009, 04:40:17 »
MRH130, i can understand what you mean ( if it's working stick to it) also my brother in law uses Mobile1 for everything even his lawn mower. because someone he knows told him years ago a motor ran on it for a lot of miles with no sign of wear, but he would not know one part from another. still it must be good. just wondering if it is high detergent and suitable for diesels?
Also a mate of mine thats a farmer and also races with me has a Jackaroo Turbo Diesel and he had a problem from useing heavy oil it would not start. but i've been told no diesel likes heavy oil not good for them. but my knowledge of diesel is just from driving never worked on them never broke one yet.

Hey Eye can understand what you mean m8, i had wobbly brake disc's on my last two Falcon Ute's, but did not go to Ford as they all wobble :) i just changed them out for DBA rotors and no more problems, but the performance For Falcons get Brembo Brakes i drove my friends Typhoon F6 with Brembo's stopped great.
I'm still enjoying my i30 how about you?

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #16 : February 19, 2009, 10:47:25 »
I'm still enjoying my i30 how about you?

Wouldn't change it as it runs so smooth and purrs like a new born
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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #17 : February 19, 2009, 13:22:45 »
thats good mate, Betsy seems to be runing very sweet right now too.whats yours called? :)

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #18 : February 19, 2009, 13:49:11 »
thats good mate, Betsy seems to be runing very sweet right now too.whats yours called? :)

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #19 : February 19, 2009, 16:08:51 »
MRH130, i can understand what you mean ( if it's working stick to it) also my brother in law uses Mobile1 for everything even his lawn mower. because someone he knows told him years ago a motor ran on it for a lot of miles with no sign of wear, but he would not know one part from another. still it must be good. just wondering if it is high detergent and suitable for diesels?
Also a mate of mine thats a farmer and also races with me has a Jackaroo Turbo Diesel and he had a problem from useing heavy oil it would not start. but i've been told no diesel likes heavy oil not good for them. but my knowledge of diesel is just from driving never worked on them never broke one yet.


hehe yes I use it in the mower as well, but I never told anyone that  :wink: I also put Optimax in the whipper snipper, so perhaps I'm just a little bit loony...

Regular Mobil 1 is good for diesels, they also make specific ones for different diesels. Mobil Delvac 1 is the specialised version of it for things like your mate's Jackaroo, and they make Mobil 1 ESP for things like the i30 CRDi. That's what I'd be using if "Crystal" was a diesel. Some diesels like a heavier oil, the big issue with 4JX1 Jackaroos not starting is that the computer keeps the fuel rail dead until it is happy with the oil pressure. So you can crank and crank but if the ECU thinks the oil pressure isn't spot on it won't give the motor any fuel. Those Jackaroos are pretty ordinary anyway, unfortunately. Hope your mate gets a good run out of his!

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #20 : February 20, 2009, 14:16:17 »
MRH thanks m8, and if your whipper snipper is 2 stroke optomax would be good. i run my ute on BP or Caltex 98 as runs clean. if you ever seen the spark plugs on one of these hree valve V8's you would understand what i mean, changed the plugs at 160,000, they were in dry so had to use WD40 so as not to strip the threads. but those bloody long spark plugs came out looking very clean no carbon at all.

As for my Mate's Jackaroo he has had some problems with ECU, he is in I T as well and was telling me how he fixed it and how he got a replacement ECU.

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #21 : February 22, 2009, 05:06:17 »
My service (of course it is official Hyundai service and dealer) uses 5w-40 oil for CRDI engines despite the fact that it is written that CRDIs must use 5w-30 oil (I had an Accent CRDI 07' before and we also have Hyundai Santa Fe 07 and they've been pouring in 5w-40 oil till I said I'll bring my own oil). They said that it is almoust the same, the only difference was suppose to be that 5w-30 is more expensive and "too weak" for our countries (whell I did some "google research" of mine and I think that they should really use 5w-30 and not 5w-40.. Because of turbo, particular filter and some other things..)

But..the problem i have now is that I bought my i30 when Hyundai in our country was "giving away" 4 year warranties (without kilometr. limitation) and 4 years of free servicing the vehicle, because of the down crease in sales. You don't have to pay anything unless they change something that is not written in the book and was not suppose to be changed at those kilometers (at 20.000 km they change oil, filters,... for free, but changing for instance brake pads at 20.000 km is not included..). I hope I explained it ok?

So..what to do now? Oil is also included as free of charge, but I don't like the fact that they use 5w-40 in these engines?

Could I have some serious problems because of that or not?

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #22 : February 22, 2009, 05:13:13 »
what brand and type 5w 40w are they useing?

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #23 : February 22, 2009, 05:13:35 »
Hey Accim,

Why don't you see if they will let you pay the difference for the 5W-30 oil..(probably only 20 Euros diff?)
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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #24 : February 22, 2009, 05:36:49 »
Hmm I'll ask them, but It was already a "problem" last time when I went to change oil and oil filter at 10.000 km. Because the car is "registered" in computer data base as 4year free of charge services etc. and it's not predicted to bring the car when "you are not supposed to" (too early or too late)..

They don't really have any problems with other customers, because no one really cares. They bring the car every 20.000 km (not everyone changes oil before the 1. service - 20k km, but I find even my 10.000 km too late) and they don't even look at what the services are putting in.

Oh..and I don't really remember which type of 5w-40 they are using. Beside that, here we don't have the same names as in UK, Austrl or USA. I think they are using Castrol Txt 5w-40 or Castrol SLX 5w-40 (you cannot buy this type of oil in the stores, only services have it. Oh yes yes I remembered..they were using Castrol SLX 5w-40 at first (it has a yellowish-golden bottle - as EDGEs) but now they are using Shell 5w-40 (but I don't know exactly which type of shell 5w-40). They don't write it. It is only written Shell 5W-40. The temperatures we have are 20-35C in summer and -15C to +5C in the winter.. But mostly in average it is 20-25C in the summer and -5C in the winter.

Eh..we'll see

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #25 : February 23, 2009, 02:21:42 »
Contact Hyundai in your country & ask them if it is acceptable. If they say to use 5w-30 advise them of what your dealer is doing. Then go back to your dealer & advise them of Hyundai's recommendation (get in in an email from Hyundai if you can) & that you have notified Hyundai that they are using the wrong type of oil. If anything happens to your car & your dealer doesn't change to the correct type of oil, any repairs that would normally be covered by Hyundai as part of the warranty will have to come out of your dealer's pocket.

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #26 : February 23, 2009, 02:55:07 »
Oh..and I don't really remember which type of 5w-40 they are using.

You need to find out exactly what they are using otherwise you can only guess whether it is correct.

The actual viscosity difference between many (most?) 30 and 40 weight oils is usually very little.  A viscosity of 30 specifies a range that the oil can be within which could be close to 20 on one end of the range or closer to 40 on the other.  It's the manufacturer's choice but most choose their 30 to be close to 40 and their 40 to be close to 30.  In other words a very similar weight for both 30 and 40.  It's the same with other viscosity numbers inasmuch as the designer can choose which end of the scale to use.

You need to look up the specs for the particular oil to make any judgment on its suitability (and actual viscosity).

Ask them again...

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Re: Beaware of using wrong oil
« Reply #27 : February 23, 2009, 04:27:06 »
Shell Helix is good oil, my friend has a CRTD 2.2 M Benz he has used Shell Helix from new has 360,000K still runing sweet, he is an exerlent driver and operates with care

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Re: Beware of using wrong oil
« Reply #28 : February 23, 2009, 07:34:55 »
Shell Helix is good oil...

Following Lakes' (no doubt correct) assumption that it's Shell Helix Ultra (one of a few 5w40 that Shell make) I attempted to find its actual viscosity from a web search but typical of nearly all the oil companies, the specifications are always missing something (like Aunty Maude's recipe for her best sponge she so willingly hands out to all who praise it  :rolleyes: ).

I could only discover the viscosity for low temperatures (40C) but not at working temperature (100C) upon which the 40 rating is based.  So I dunno whether it's a thick or thin 40 weight oil.  Maybe a harder search would find the answer.

But like I said before, without knowing exactly what it is, the rest is a guess...

If it is Shell Helix Ultra 5w40, it is specified ACEA B4 which would be correct for a diesel motor.  It is made from a base oil of "highly refined mineral" which (they didn't say) would be a base III oil and the cheapest base from which to make "synthetic" oil.  Absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and it is probably a good oil - but I don't have any empirical knowledge - only the (internet sourced) information I repeat here.      

 


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