Author Topic: gear change possible issue  (Read 2305 times)

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gear change possible issue
« April 18, 2017, 04:37:20 »
Hi,

I am new to this forum today.

Let me first explain whats going on in my life...
I am currently learning to drive, before I started to take any lessons last year I wanted a car to practice in, as it would be a practice car we obviously wasn't gonna spend a lot of money on it thinking we only need it to last 1/2 years then we can afford to buy a better car with my wifes insurance money that she will get paid out in 2 years time (she is sick so it disability money). We ended up with a Peugeot 307 SW 2.0 petrol 2004 model which had a lot of miles and was used in the past for 3 learner drivers so the gear box was ok but not in best condition. About a month ago the gear box went on the car, not a total surprise but we would of liked it to at least seen me get my license which should be around 2 months away, tt was gonna cost as much as the car cost to get it fixed so we decided instead of buying a cheap car again which may only last us a year or 2 we should take a loan and buy a better car but still at a good price. We have recently bought a 2nd hand i30 1.6 diesel 2010 model with not so many miles on the clock, as the dealership threw in 3 years guarantee we thought it was a pretty good deal.

Now my problem...
I am having an issue with getting used to the gear changes in this car. I am sure its as i've been learning to drive in a petrol and i've now switched to a diesel. When i start the car from a stand still obviously i start in 1st, when I get to around 20km/h i switch to 2nd and feels smooth. Now when i switch to 3rd if i was driving the Peugeot it would be at 30km/h but on this car it wants you to be in 40km/h , if I try to switch before I get the vibrations and juddering that I am in too higher gear. Accelerating 20km/h to 40km/h on 2nd if you do it fast is ok in my opinion as the engine doesnt sound like its pushing too hard, when i accelerate on 2nd slowly up to 40km/h it sounds very bad as im putting too much strain on the engine. There is a lot of times in my town where the speed limit is 30km/h so to do that i need to stick in 2nd, it just doesnt sound right in my opinion and even on 30km/h it wants to be shifted up but when i do so i get the vibration and juddering feeling. Plus isnt it bad for fuel consumption to stay in 2nd for that long?
also i noticed when i shift to 3rd at 40km/h i need to accelerate slowly upto 50km/h otherwise i get a very bad vibration/shudder sound, after 50km/h it is fine to floor it.

Please can I have advice on this. So sorry for my lack of knowledge on the car terms, as I said im a learner and am not into cars so am inexperienced with the language.

I have tried to read as many threads on this subject as I could before posting here with the help of Google.
It has been suggested that you should use the torque, I dont understand this. I know that the torque is the pushing power of the wheels right and it is much higher on diesels than petrols but thats all i know about it. If someone can explain more on this for me.
Another users opinion was that you should shift gears when turbo is kicked in. i think the turbo starts around the 1800rpm mark, am i right? what do you say about this?
it has also been said that you do not have to shift gears as much on a diesel than a petrol, what do they mean by this?

thanks for reading
James
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 05:19:13 by jamos316 » »


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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #1 : April 18, 2017, 06:21:21 »
Hello and welcome to the forum.

The reason the car feels rough, is due to the increased compression ratio of Diesels. Petrol cars have much lower compression ratios than Diesels. Diesels use the compression to ignite the fuel, which is why there are no coils or spark plugs.

The gearing and compression will determine how the car behaves.
Rest assured there is nothing wrong with the car.  Simply change at the higher point and enjoy the car.

Diesels do not like to be revved as much as petrol engines. Your best economy will be at or below 3k rpm. They have more torque than petrol engines and will pull much better than petrol.
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #2 : April 18, 2017, 06:27:09 »
Hi James and  :welcome:

Your explanation is fine. I'm guessing it is a 5 speed? The updated 6 speed had less tendency to judder at lower revs in 3rd.

Normally we tell people to change up early with the diesel. No need to usually rev much past 2500 rpm in normal driving.

Sounds like your town speed limits fall in an awkward rev range for your i30. You are probably going to have to stay in 2nd until you can get to a speed where 3rd or 4th is happy.

It won't be much thirstier really. It's a tricky situation for anyone, let alone a learner.

We had a 2008 5 speed manual diesel from new for about 30 months.

It was a great car, but I do recall an unpleasant judder if we let in labour around 1400-1500 Rpms in 3rd... 

Be interested to hear what other members say!
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #3 : April 18, 2017, 06:51:38 »
thanks for reply dazzler!

its actually 6 speed transmission.
so are you saying that this gear changing is normal and basically i would have to put up with the noise?
it normally hits 2.5rpm when i get to 40km/h in 2nd gear

did you have any opinions over this?
'I have tried to read as many threads on this subject as I could before posting here with the help of Google.
It has been suggested that you should use the torque, I dont understand this. I know that the torque is the pushing power of the wheels right and it is much higher on diesels than petrols but thats all i know about it. If someone can explain more on this for me.
Another users opinion was that you should shift gears when turbo is kicked in. i think the turbo starts around the 1800rpm mark, am i right? what do you say about this?
it has also been said that you do not have to shift gears as much on a diesel than a petrol, what do they mean by this?'
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #4 : April 18, 2017, 07:06:13 »
O/K that is interesting. One of our members @Lakes  had a 6 speed manual after previously having a 5 speed and he said the 6 speed was much better in that regard (shudder in lower gears)

Maybe it is running a bit rough? Poor fuel quality or something.

The extra torque of the diesel means when you get up to highway speeds (5th or 6th gear) there is enough torque (pulling power) up hills that you are much less likely to have to change to a lower gear.
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #5 : April 18, 2017, 08:10:40 »
i have already mentioned to the dealership that there is a possible issue with gears and they said to bring it in for them to test drive, as its under the 3 year guarantee it will be free to fix if there is a problem.
I dont think its the fuel as a quick google search shows it to be high quality...EVO DIESEL
could it be oil needs changing out somewhere?
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #6 : April 18, 2017, 11:58:41 »
Guess it could be running rough be cause of the wrong oil, but again unlikely. Be interesting for you to drive an equivalent diesel model in similar circumstances,  but being you are a learner they may be nervous about letting you do that.
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #7 : April 18, 2017, 12:28:17 »
When I had my diesel I could not go into 4th until I was doing nearly 40mph!
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #8 : April 18, 2017, 12:41:20 »
Well, mines a 6 speed. It should do 30kph in 3rd though without much trouble, mine does 25 in third, 45 in 4th, 55 in 5th and 65 in 6th. I generally shift at 1500rpm now. 3/4 throttle when accelerating. Runs smooth at 1200rpm.

Could be in need of new gearbox oil, or a different engine oil - my engine did not like the cheap castrol c3 oil, nor the standard shell helix, at low revs. I run shell helix proffesional AV-L(0w30) now. The AM-L(5w30) worked good too.

Dealer should know what they put in last time if it was serviced at them.

How many km on the car? Does it happen when the engine and drivetrain warm(after 30+ km)? What tire size and air pressure are you running?

Tell us what the dealer thought of the problem!
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #9 : April 18, 2017, 15:53:27 »
Hi Jamos  :welcome:
Like Dazz has mentioned i had a 6 speed CRDi, it felt more refined to me than my first one, that had a funny shake or jerk in third gear at a low rev.
i think easier to work out your problem if you check the RPM to tell us @ what RPM & in what gear as thats what i always went off. alsi how far are you putting your foot down to the GO peddle ? As these cars use drive by wire & programmed so the speed you push your right foot down at or if you are gentle with your right foot. that also plays a part how the motor responds. but i was gentle on that when i was below 2,000rpm & it could pull smooth enough from 1,500 up but if you want to go fast better if motor was @ i,000rpm or higher & i would shift up before going over 3,000rpm. but the i30 i had was low geared so if you where asking it to go fast it would rev quick past 3,000 so had to shift quick. only problem i ever had was trying to reverse up a steep hill ( it would not do it). they are a small turbo diesel, so need the low gearing. hope you start to enjoy your new car once you get used to it.

Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #10 : April 18, 2017, 16:06:43 »
hi lakes
i have noticed in the past that when im accelerating up to 40km/h in 2nd it reaches 2.5rpm. i dont think ive ever got over this rpm in any gear.
if i do floor it up to 40km/h then yes it doesnt sound bad but if the speed limit is 30km/h i have to take it slow. it really does sound like the engines working to hard at 30km/h on 2nd but then if i switch up to 3rd the rpm goes down to somewhere around 1.5 and i get a vibration/judder effect, this happens all the way up to 40km/h.
also when i am on 3rd at 40km/h and want to floor it to 60km/h then i need to take it slow upto 50km/h then i can floor it. 40km/h to 50km/h always gives very bad rumble noise for some reason, once im past 50km/h then no problem to floor it to whatever speed.

does this sound normal or is it something i should go to the dealership with. they have already said that i go in one afternoon and they will test frive to see if there is an issue and of course fix for free if there is an issue

James
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #11 : April 18, 2017, 16:31:45 »
Thanks John (Lakes) and Xiziz.

Xiziz makes a good point. The diesel motor is slow to warm up by nature, very solid engine block.

They definitely run rougher when cold. Your cooler climate and, I assume, only short local trips probably isn't helping the issue.
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #12 : April 18, 2017, 16:59:46 »
Oh, by the way James.. Make sure you go with them if they test drive your car.

For two reasons... See if they use a different driving style and also, if it does the same thing for them then they can't deny the problem!
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #13 : April 19, 2017, 02:19:30 »
Ask them to check the injectors, i believe they can do this through the dealer GDS Software. I believe they can carry out a test or two and see if they are within spec etc.

When I had a set of worn/dodgy injectors, my car wasnt smooth and make afew different noises under 2000rpm.

From my experience, the engine isnt as refined as other brands, i dont change when the dash light says as that just labors the engine unless your on a perfectly smooth and level motorway.

I dont drive with the revs any lower than 1500rpm unless motorway cruising/6th gear, otherwise the car just seems awkward to me.

I also find for a smooth gear change, sometimes I have to push to stick to the left (nearside/passenger in UK) to get a better physical change.

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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #14 : April 19, 2017, 03:52:09 »
When I had my diesel I could not go into 4th until I was doing nearly 40mph!

I can be in 4th at 60 km/h, but not much less (in my 6 speed).
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #15 : April 19, 2017, 14:13:10 »
I took a detour through a 30 zone today to get some speed/revs on 3rd gear. Mine does 25kph smooth at 900h950rpm on a level road. 30kph at 1050-1100rpm, smooth even in normal ups and downs on the road.
40kph at 1500rpm.

Sure, engine has a little different tone(more tractor) at low revs, but no vibrations or any other sign of stress/hesitation, like it will if you forget to downshift in a steep hill, you can really feel when the car wants to downshift.

I wonder why my experience differs so to everyone elses! I do take it up to 3500rpm atleast once a tank and let it sit there a few seconds, and when I notice a dpf regen I keep revs over 2000, usually in 3rd or 4th depending on the speed limit.
Which gives me another thought... Low milage car, probably done mostly short trips, might need a good dpf cleaning next time the regen trips(like above).

How many km on the odo?
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #16 : April 21, 2017, 12:57:32 »
ok guys i took it to the dealership today and i went in the car with the guy.
basically there is nothing wrong and that the thing i noticed is that he was getting up the revs every time hitting 3000rpm quite often for a gear change from 2nd the 3rd. As I said in my previous posts that I don't think I have ever gone past 2.5rpm before thinking that i shouldn't push the engine but i think you need to on diesel cars.
he said the the car is fine in 3rd gear at 30km/h on a straight stretch or downward slope however going up a hill it needs the extra revs and you need to shift down where as petrol you might be able to get away in the 3rd gear.
he did say that diesel cars are not the best for city driving and that the perform the best at high speeds which i guess is one of the things you need to weigh up, do you want smooth city driving or do you want low fuel consumption.
the thing i didn't ask him which i should of is if there is a situation when you are in 3rd gear at 30km/h and you come to a bit of a hill and you shift down then when you do that the cars motor brakes will kick in trying to slow you down to 20km/h where in this situation you don't want this.
how can i stop the braking from kicking in?

another thing that's happened is that on the car key the pin that holds the spear to the fob has pinged out and i can see there is a hairline crack in the hole that the pin sits. i have given the key in to the garage to fix and they said that they have an old key that they can use if the casing is the same, if not they will need to order a new key which will not be under the warranty. personally im not that satisfied with me having to shell out more money as we bought the car last month from the dealership and we thought we were purchasing it with the 2 remote keys working, obviously you dont check for things like if they have a crack somewhere but i think this has to be the case.
what are your thought?

James
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #17 : April 21, 2017, 15:04:03 »
Thanks for the update. The revs thing doesn't seem quite right to me, but sounds like you may just have to drive it the way he did and live with it. I never had a 6 speed FD model (only the earlier 5 speed) and it was over 6 years ago I traded it, so hard to remember.

With regards to the key if the swap thing doesn't work don't let them order a genuine replacement at top $. There are links and instructions on here to cheaper alternatives. I'm still waking up (only 5am here) Either myself or someone else (hint, hint) might post a link to a key repair thread later...
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #18 : April 21, 2017, 16:02:20 »
I think Amazon UK is the place to look, as long as they are in EU, unless youre good at german, in which case it might be a euro cheaper there.

Quick search gave me this: :link: Chequers Motorstore New Hyundai I20 I30 3 Button Key: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

I'm a little unsure what is needed, but i can imagine hyundai sweden charging 300sek or more for it!
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #19 : April 21, 2017, 18:33:17 »
Thanks Xiziz!

There are instructions somewhere I here which we can point you to should the need arise.

One of the main things is the need to switch everything over from the old case including the semi hidden immobilizer chip.
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #20 : April 21, 2017, 18:47:13 »
Sorry, your statements about petrol / Diesel motors are about faced. The Diesel produces much more torque which is the motivating force of the car at low revs and unless the gearing of the vehicle is particularly tall, you should drive using lower revs.

Our 4sp Diesel has never been past 3k revs, just doesn't need to  :exclaim:
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #21 : April 22, 2017, 05:29:41 »
Thanks for information about the key, seems cheap enough to fix but I think they should be the ones to fix both of the keys free of charge as I purchased the car only 1 month ago. I can get the key to work as it is now by just applying a little for force to click the fob to the spear then turn the same when turning off the engine but the moment there is no force the fob goes away from the spear again but you can simply pull the spear out from the ignition at that stage. As both keys pins went at pretty much the same time I don't think they can say we were the ones to damage it and that we bought it like this.
I wanna try and stay strong with this as I think these dealerships can take the piss if you let them!

With the gears, when I left the dealership yesterday I did try to drive bit more like him and getting the revs up a bit. Must admit it did feel and sound better.
I need to wait until I get my license (hopefully next month) then take it to a quiet street to test the gears at different rpms. Definitely a learning curve with these diesel cars and it does seem like a different engine in the same car can still give different results.

James
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #22 : April 22, 2017, 07:09:46 »
James,

You have to remember yours is over 7 years old (that includes the keys too I assume)

So it may not perform like a new one, but hopefully it is still a good car.  :victory:
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #23 : May 06, 2017, 08:35:24 »
Ok i have just got my car back from service from the dealership.
I am very happy with the outcome, it seems to run smoother now.

If you have read a thread I started 'dead battery' I have recently reported that they changed the battery free of charge (warranty).  :wink:
Something obviously wasn't right here.

The things they replaced as well as the battery;
oil filter - coolant - motor oil.
They also said the replaced thing k-stav (Swedish), i have no idea what this is. Maybe some Swedish users can help me out here.

I reported here that you couldn't change to 3rd gear until it was exactly 40km/h,now it seems more like 35km/h.
I also said about when accelerate fast from 40km/h to 50km/h there is a big shudder/vibration, now it's very minimal if anything!  :)

About the 2 broken keys they tried to replace the casing using an old key but it didn't work for whatever reason so they ordered us 2 new keys. They first wanted us to pay but I sent off a strong email saying that we only just bought the car and the fact that it happened to 2 keys and round about the same time tells me that it's not something we done but you gave us broken keys.
I think that helped as they gave no charge! Lol  :victory:

Whatever they changed from the above list did something good for the car, either that or my hopes were high so it is my imagination not seeing the negativity :-).
Or it's possible that I'm just a better driver now with the car.
Either way thumbs up!  :goodjob2:

James
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #24 : May 06, 2017, 17:02:52 »
Hi James, Thanks for the update. Wow, you've done very well with your negotiations. The selling dealer has certainly looked after you. Many new car buyers don't get treated like that (let alone used ones!!)

I suspected rough running was contributing to the judder, so i'm not really surprised it is better after a service. Could also be a bit to do with improved driving techniques and you getting used to the car.  :victory:
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #25 : May 06, 2017, 17:40:18 »
Hi James, Thanks for the update. Wow, you've done very well with your negotiations. The selling dealer has certainly looked after you. Many new car buyers don't get treated like that (let alone used ones!!)

I suspected rough running was contributing to the judder, so i'm not really surprised it is better after a service. Could also be a bit to do with improved driving techniques and you getting used to the car.  :victory:


Thanks daz!
Yes I feel quite proud of the way we handled things although I really think that all as we just bought the car (3 year warranty aside) they are obliged to correct these things. I'm sure that Sweden has some law protecting you that if you buy from a dealership it needs to be of a certain standard.
I can image that some dealerships can be very difficult to deal with.
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Re: gear change possible issue
« Reply #26 : May 06, 2017, 19:46:20 »
You've done well jamos316,
Good to see it's running better after a service and that all is going nicely.  :goodjob:
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