[kennethmcdonald01]

Hi.

Have been down a few dead ends with this one.

Engine Cranks OK. Key symbol (in Car) on Dash illuminates so key is verified, Symbol goes off when Cranking.

Randomly the car will not start  as defined above. There are no obd2 codes present...

Pulled the dash apart looking for loose wires, none found.

When Battery is disconnected for an hour sometimes longer is required. Occasionally this trick does not work straight away and has to be left even longer. I suspect that pulsing the battery terminals by connecting and disconnecting quickly a few times gets it to start on the following attempt.

Any ideas.

Still trying to get a workshop manual or a circuit diagram for 2007 diesel model.
Any links or ideas will be very welcome

Kenneth     

[nzenigma]

1  Engine Cranks OK.  Symbol goes off when Cranking.

2   suspect that pulsing the battery terminals by connecting and disconnecting quickly a few times gets it to start on the following attempt.

Kenneth     

 Start here:   #1 & #2  suggest antenna coil is intermittently open.

Known to fault, it fits around ignition lock. Easy DIY.

[charlescrown]

Let me know what electrical diagram you need.

[kennethmcdonald01]

Have eliminated the crank and cam sensors. Put osilloaxope on them and waveform  is as expected.

Removing carank sensor gives exact symptoms of no start as manifests intermittently, which is why i suspected this. But it has a strong signal

Diagrams that would be very useful would be the security system and connections to ecu.

If i can find where theae are doing a handshake then i can monitor that signal.

Regards

Kenneth

[nzenigma]

I have had several ant coils fail. Usually key symbol flashes then goes out. Only way to make sure is change it or  hang one near key.

[kennethmcdonald01]

Key symbol stays on steady then off when cranking as normal when it starts.
When it fails to start the key symbol is on when key turned.. not flashing.

I would love it to be as simple as replace the coil.

I have to wait till it fails to start then put oscilloscope on the cam and crank sensors.

Being an intermittent fault this makes finding fault so much more difficult

Kenneth

[kennethmcdonald01]

Full set id electrical schematics would be great. Cant find any for rhe 1.6 cdri diesel

[mickd]

@kennethmcdonald01
Try reply #2

[Dazzler]

Let me know what electrical diagram you need.

@mickd

Do you mean this one (reply #3 on my PC)

[mickd]

Let me know what electrical diagram you need.

@mickd

Do you mean this one (reply #3 on my PC)

Isn't that funny -right quote from charles but #2 on my phone 
Not to worry,  I'm sure Ken will sort it out   

[The Gonz]

It's #2 on all my machines. Mefinks Mr Admin sees stuff we mere mortals cannot.

[Dazzler]

It's #2 on all my machines. Mefinks Mr Admin sees stuff we mere mortals cannot.

 

[tw2005]

It's #2 on all my machines. Mefinks Mr Admin sees stuff we mere mortals cannot.

Mefinks Mr Admin can't count

Post #3 or reply #2

Take a screenshot dazz, show us what you got



P.S. Corona got poor Timbo  A Goodie gone 

[charlescrown]

I need to go into work and their closed for the next 2 weeks.

[nzenigma]

Full set id electrical schematics would be great. Cant find any for rhe 1.6 cdri diesel

If you are certain the immobilser is inactive, dont wait, just plow on.
 The download is about 2GB and has every model and will only give you  the ECU pin out not the internals. My crystal ball thinks this is the sus unit.
You could check the connections to it for corrosion given vehicle age.

If you are looking for a simple solution, opening the ECU and enticing a component to fail, is not simple.

Does your scanner show live data?
If you have rpm ( tacho?), air, fuel pressure and pulse to injectors,thats about all a diesel needs to fire up.

[Dazzler]

It's #2 on all my machines. Mefinks Mr Admin sees stuff we mere mortals cannot.

Mefinks Mr Admin can't count

Post #3 or reply #2

Take a screenshot dazz, show us what you got



P.S. Corona got poor Timbo  A Goodie gone 

Sad about Timbo! 😥

I know it's technically reply #2 but it says reply 3..

[mickd]

@The Gonz
You're right , admin do see more 




As I said , am.Ken will figure it out 

[mickd]

Speaki g of "figure it out ",   crank this up  ! !
( Royal Blood - 2 guys - 1 guitarist/singer & the drummer )

[Dazzler]

Speaki g of "figure it out ",   crank this up  ! !
( Royal Blood - 2 guys - 1 guitarist/singer & the drummer )

Didn't mind that "tune".. 

[kennethmcdonald01]

Replies to #14     enclosed by dots.....

If you are certain the immobilser is inactive, dont wait, just plow on.

....I am plowing on .. painfully slowly but plowing on none the less...

.......I am not certain on the immobiliser, have to keep an open mimd.....

 The download is about 2GB and has every model and will only give you  the ECU pin out not the internals. My crystal ball thinks this is the sus unit.

.....Where is this downloadable from ...? This would be a good resource....

You could check the connections to it for corrosion given vehicle age.
.........Had all th e  plugs off and checked , no corrosion visible on electrical connections......

If you are looking for a simple solution, opening the ECU and enticing a component to fail, is not simple.
.......If I had an idea which ECU component was responsible for this I would do two things to stress it, heat and a can of instant freeze.....

Does your scanner show live data?
If you have rpm ( tacho?), air, fuel pressure and pulse to injectors,thats about all a diesel needs to fire up.

.........Scanner is an ELM 327 bluetooth connect to Torque lite on android
Shows revs , pressure , haven't seen pulse to injectors, this may be on paid version of Torque, will check this out. any clues otherwise on where pulse to injectors can be found.
If it would fail to start again I will hold a screwdriver against injectors to listen for "Clicking"..........

Sods law says it will keep starting happily till I need it the most...

[nzenigma]

Hyundai i30 Workshop Service Repair Manual

Workshop manual for i30crdi

Afraid I left off a '0'.  They are 20 Gb  downloads , hope you have NBN !!

I call these faults 'dogs'. You need to leave them in a corner with a scope and meter attached and wait...and wait. Obviously annoyingly practical if its a computer or the like, but the car needs some lateral thinking and heaps of luck.

Yep same here, heat lamp or gun and can of freeze.

My suspicion about the ECU comes from the fact that its not throwing up codes. Not detecting any or stopped functioning?
For the future bear in mind that the  FD 2007 HP fuel cct and rail is different to 2009 onward.
If you slightly crack one of the rail to injector lines, you should see evidence of diesel at 30k psi. BUT Beware!!!

 immobiliser failures, ?????? They can be so erratic. Easy for me because I have a few used Smartra coils here, and simply plugging one in will avoid an 'oh shit' moment in two weeks time.

[nzenigma]

@kennethmcdonald01

Mate an afterthought re the immobiliser. Having previously spent weeks swapping ECU and immobilsor  etc etc from  one BMW model to another, I cant now say for sure whether all or just some functions are shut down on the i30.

Quick solution would be to see if you have  crank and cam pulse with the smartra coil disconnected. (The connector is beside the key barrel).
Obviously, if they disappear, then we can say key code must be recognised when pulses do exist.
Cheers G.

[kennethmcdonald01]

Thats a really cool suggestion

[Dazzler]

@nzenigma Love yur work Gary. 

[nzenigma]

@nzenigma Love yur work Gary. 

 

Thanks, I'll love it even more when we solve ol mate's drama.

[kennethmcdonald01]

Thanks to all for the help so far.

I may have solved the pronle which if this works will leave me feeling quite dumb for not getting solution sooner.

The reasoning firstly...

I had an oscilloscope momitoring the  crankshaft sensor as this when disconnected manifest the isaue i had exactly being no start and no signal to drive injectors. Also gave no error codes.

When i was cranking it over i noticed that the induced voltage from sensor was dropping and proportional to engine turn over speed.

I will post some waveforms to demonstrate this.

The induced sensor voltage (sinusoidal pattern) dropped to less than half of  the voltage seen when engine running in idle this was the clue.

I monitored the battery voltage during cranking and it fell to almost 7 volts

I was about to go buy a new battery when.i noticed it has filler holes on esch cell. The battery took almost 1.5 litres of distilled water.

The battery voltage when cranking after this was around ten volts and  engine spun.over much much faster.

It started first time.

Checking crank sensor voltage during start and it was clear that the faster the engine turned  over the higher the sensor output voltage
 This it seems was the issue all along.. engine was cranking over too slowly to give sufficient voltage from the crank sensor

This has taken me months to solve this issue. Very ontermittent.. very clear now.with hindsight

Battery is now on charge and will be taking it for a few stop start journeys.

Thanks again to all for the great ideas.

Woll report back here if it fails to start again.

 

 

[nzenigma]

@nzenigma Love yur work Gary. 

 

Thanks, I'll love it even more when we solve ol mate's drama.

 

[kennethmcdonald01]

This is reply to #14, NZenigma..


Where do you see injectors fire on the blue tooth OBD2 ?

ps disconnecting Coil for key sensing results in the injectors NOT firing.

[nzenigma]

You wont see it.

Use Scope or noid lamp

How to test a fuel injector circuit with basic tools (open control wire) - YouTube

[kennethmcdonald01]

Noid lamp is just a 12 volt bulb?